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AIBU?

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to think that when there is a schools place crisis perhaps the government should think of ways to reduce birth rates?

647 replies

jellysandwich · 04/09/2013 10:27

In my area (London) there is already a huge shortfall in places because there has been a baby boom. They are constantly opening new schools or creating bulge classes but this is often at the expense of other children who lose their playing fields and there is just not enough room in London to keep opening new schools and there is already a housing crisis because the country is so overcrowded.

I think perhaps it is time the government thought about limiting child related benefits to 2 children (which is the replacement rate) and those that want to have more can do so but not with taxpayers money. It would go some way to stopping some of the problems that rising birthrates create such as the school places crisis, overcrowding, pollution, increasing struggles for resources such as food and water and in an already overpopulated world I think the government is being negligent in not putting some sort of limit on child related benefits, especially when it seems to be counter-intuitive (if you work you don't get more money each time you have another child).

OP posts:
JaquelineHyde · 04/09/2013 21:09

BINGO!

I have 4 DC, my husband is an immigrant and we are poor and in receipt of means tested benefits .

Quick take me outside for 50 lashings and run the children to the workhouse.

givemeaboost · 04/09/2013 21:31

to clarify, I don't meaning working poor I mean the unemployed :-p

MrsDeVere · 04/09/2013 21:35

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BrownSauceSandwich · 04/09/2013 21:40

How about we deport the surplus kids to the bleak northeast?

Dahlen · 04/09/2013 22:21

I disagree strongly with the statement that children are a lifestyle choice. The urge to procreate is hard wired into our species as a means of perpetuating it. Granted, we have conscious intelligence, free will and (in the UK) contraception. Also, human nature is diverse enough that some people will not feel that urge at all or choose to ignore it. But most don't. Across westernised countries with adequate access to contraception the percentage of those who become parents is consistently about 80% - regardless of welfare provision. To equate having children with choosing to take up horse riding is a fallacy.

Lifestyle choices come into it in terms of
how many and when, but that's about it .

If we want to look at ways of discouraging people from having more than one we have to ensure it's not done in a way that discriminates against women. We also need to question the assumption that people have children to get benefits. I know several women for whom benefits have meant that an unplanned pregnancy is not considered that big a deal but I know none that deliberately chose to get pregnant to get benefits. Scrapping benefits may make them a bit more careful about contraception but we should be asking ourselves why they aren't doing that in the first place. Where is their aspiration? How has society failed them so badly that a career was never an option and motherhood understandably is viewed as a better alternative to an abortion and a dead end job with no guaranteed hours and a pittance to live on. And what about the fathers in all this? Why aren't they insisting that more effective contraception is used?

The trouble with any attempt to control reproduction is that it always affects women unfavourably.

morethanpotatoprints · 04/09/2013 22:27

MrsDeVere

Oh you are so right.
I left the thread a while ago because of the posts on adoption.
For once words actually fail me and I find it difficult to understand why any civilised person could even contemplate the suggestion. Shock Angry Sad

Anniegetyourgun · 04/09/2013 22:35

CBA to read 8 pages of this, has anyone suggested mincing the surplus offspring into rissoles and giving them out in food banks? Killing two birds with one stone, innit.

caramelwaffle · 04/09/2013 22:37

Is it 90% of Britain that has not been built on?

Or 80% with 10% developed for farming...?

skyeskyeskye · 04/09/2013 22:39

Ive only got one DD so if anybody has got a spare going let me know Grin

Fifilosttheplot · 05/09/2013 00:18

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MrsKoala · 05/09/2013 00:32

i fucking hate Malthusians. I really do. For some reason i hate their opinions more than any other. I think it's because it's spouted by 'liberals' under the quise of being good for the planet blahblah bullshit. But what it really boils down to is only 'people like me' deserve to live and brown people and poor people are somehow less deserving than me and i've had my children so i'm alright Jack (i wonder how they feel about their relatives/dc adding to the population boom?). If people are so bothered about it, when they spout off earnestly i suggest; if over crowding and being a burden on the environment bothers them so much, they could consider taking one for the team. Funnily enough they don't agree with that point.

The answer to the worlds problems lies within human innovation. If anything, we need more of us not less. The issue is distribution (of wealth and resources) not the amount of people using them.

ShadowSummer · 05/09/2013 00:39

Given that families where one parent earns over £60k don't get child benefit any more, I wonder if birth rates are starting to fall yet among that section of the population? Hmm

I'm also very skeptical about the notion that child related benefits are a major factor in most parents with more than 2 DC having decided to have DC3 or more.

Mimishimi · 05/09/2013 01:05

We, and the Western world generally, actually has a problem with declining birthrates. Jonathan Last's "What to Expect When Noone's Expecting" is a good book to read on this. I do agree with WellWobbly that mass immigration has been the proposed solution for this for those who want to try and keep the numbers looking good to prove their theories that survival of the fittest is the best economic policy even if the evidence is that families are cracking and their offspring are choosing, or are forced, not to reproduce.

It's silly to blame immigrants when so many have better jobs/education/capital than us. I hardly know any who rely on welfare although undoubtedly there might be somPr

Mimishimi · 05/09/2013 01:13

We, and the Western world generally, actually has a problem with declining birthrates. Jonathan Last's "What to Expect When Noone's Expecting" is a good book to read on this. I do agree with WellWobbly that mass immigration has been the proposed solution for this for those who want to try and keep the numbers looking good to prove their theories that survival of the fittest is the best economic policy even if the evidence is that families are cracking and their offspring are choosing, or are forced, not to reproduce. The book has a failing in that it doesn't make a connection between the policy of perpetual warfare and people choosing to give up ... mainly because he seems to agree with that proposition.

It's silly to blame immigrants when so many have better jobs/education/capital than us. I married one and he is one of the hardest working people I know as are many of his friends. Many immigrants create new businesses which generate new jobs. Personally I hardly know any who rely on welfare although undoubtedly there might be somPr

Mimishimi · 05/09/2013 01:20

Sorry for the multiple posts. Kept getting an error message that the server did not understand my browser requesPr

dysfunctionallynormal · 05/09/2013 02:16

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dysfunctionallynormal · 05/09/2013 02:24

Dahlen - the urge to procreate may be hardwired into our biology, however, that does NOT mean our wombs should be dedicated to endlessly producing children.

By the way - horse riding is a hobby (and i did not say anything of the sort) so you may want to pick a different analogy.....

dysfunctionallynormal · 05/09/2013 02:30

morethanpotatoprints - exactly what is it about the adoption comments that offends you and leaves you lost for words? I'd really like to know.

Those children DESERVE to be loved and looked after. They NEED parents and to belong to a family. Why should they not have that?

Perhaps you were referring to the person who asked where any future adoptees would come from? I'm not even going to dignify that comment with a reply.

LtEveDallas · 05/09/2013 06:02

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LtEveDallas · 05/09/2013 06:22

You may find the following interesting/enlightening Welfare Britain especially the part where it points out that only 8% of everyone claiming some sort of benefit (that includes pensioners - our biggest welfare claimants) have 3 or more children. The lady you claim to know...she will be one of them, then.

Loeri · 05/09/2013 07:17

I think having a children is definitely a lifestyle choice nowadays. Women with good jobs tend to have fewer (or no) children while women with crap jobs or no job tend to have more. It's very worrying for the future IMO. Especially when you hear about children being sent to school still in nappies/not being able to read/sit up unaided/eat with cutlery. Or even knowing their own name in some cases. :(

JakeBullet · 05/09/2013 07:26

"tickets for the outrage bus"....I love that @ fiftieslosttheplot

JakeBullet · 05/09/2013 07:32

Loori, I agree with you about the children missing out on basics. Yet there is another thread going on at the moment with people expressing outrage because those very children are being sought for 15 hours of free childcare at 2yrs. This is about giving them the chance of a level playing field with their more fortunate peers when they reach reception.

Sadly on the thread there are lots of people saying "it's not fair" and seemingly not able to see that this is a scheme to try and benefit those children. ....not the parents.

So yes I agree that there are children out there born simply because their parents have no hope or aspiration to do anything else. The sad thing is that if you ask the average 7 year old girl what she wants to do when she grows up then you are highly unlikely to get "I want to be a Mum and have lots of children". Seven year olds have ambition and hope.......I wonder when that dies or is knocked out of them? Sad

Loeri · 05/09/2013 07:41

So having children IS a lifestyle choice then?

MrsDeVere · 05/09/2013 07:56

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