I've come to think that anti-sleep training hysteria on here is alienating and potentially harmful.

[INeedThatForkOff]

Having read countless threads in which sleep training (and let's not be euphemistic - I mean controlled crying) is denounced as cruel and damaging, I've resisted it until now.

DD is 3.6 and DS is 10mo. I am on my knees with exhaustion and have to return to work. My mum is seriously ill and frankly it's all affecting my mental health.

I got myself a referral to the HV-run sleep clinic. The HVs are Millpond trained and although they often get slated on here I've never met a bad one in my area

DD is responding brilliantly to bribery a reward-based approach, but obviously DS is too little for that. Instead CC with intervals of 30 seconds to 20 mins was suggested, and it is transforming the quality of our family life already.

DS is napping in the day, and although I am well aware of the links between crying and its impact on neurological development, I am convinced that learning to sleep will far, far outweigh this.

He's only slept through once so far, but is staying in his cot and sleeping for longer and longer periods at night.

I'm so sad to have wasted my maternity leave on feeling so down and exhausted. I think perhaps the critics ought to consider the improvement in quality of life that sleep brings to the whole family. I really regret having heeded them for so long.

er is sleep training the new controlled crying?

cc saved my sanity and health. did it with dc1 at end of my teacher and then with all subsequent babies.

I can safely say they are all fine, sensible well balanced adults/ teens now.

do what's right for you and your family and please ignore any nosy twats who tell you it's cruel. it sooo isn't.

Cat you gradually reduce the amount of contact you give as they fall asleep. Eg

Rocking to sleep
Holding and standing still
Putting in cot and standing holding your arms round them (involves bendiness!)
Putting in cot and stroking
Patting tummy
One hand on tummy, not patting
Standing by cot
Pottering round room going in and out I eyesight (eg putting washing away)
Sitting by door out of eyesight
Putting in cot and leaving room.

We did from 1 night to 1 week at each stage as he got used to them.

Gradual retreat is very gentle and very small steps every sleep time. Going from cuddling to sleep, to putting in bed almost asleep to hand on baby going to sleep to sitting in room with baby to putting baby in bed awake and waiting outside the door til they go to sleep.

Works well and they tend not to notice the "retreat" bit and don't cry with it. They basically learn to self settle knowing they are safe and you are near.

Bigkids said it better. X posted.

I;ve been flamed for doing CC. I think one poster went so far as to say I made her feel physically sick :)

I did it with DS at 10 months. I wouldn't do it with a young baby.

I don't think it's right for all babies and it's certainly not right for all parents but it was right for us. If we have another I don't assume it will be right for them. Babies are individuals and different things work for different ones.

Don't let the flaming militants get to you. You know what is best for your child and your situation. They don't.

I'm glad it's working and hope you start to get some proper sleep.

There's enough guilt involved in being a mother with out us heaping it on each other.

It's an emotive issue and people feel quite strongly both ways. My experience has been that the majority of people I met in real life have strongly advocated cc or cio, and I've had a constant stream of criticism (from other mums, my hv and dp's family) for not wanting to do this with my dc. So mn is like an oasis where I can find other people who don't think I'm mad or stupid.

While I don't think I would ever post openly criticising someone for cc/cio, if a thread is asking for opinions then I would say I'm opposed to them, that it doesn't feel right to me, and that there are other options. Those of you who feel differently and have different experiences will post differently, so the op will get a range of opinions.

Also, both my dc were bad sleepers. Dd1 woke every 2 hours for 6 months, then at least 3 times a week until 16 months. Dd2 is 6 months now, and woke 11 times a couple of nights ago. It isn't true that people who oppose cc/cio don't understand what it's like to be sleep deprived, they are just making a different choice.

So glad it worked for you. Its not for everyone, certainly not me. Each to their own etc.

3 times a night, not week. 3 times a week would have been lovely!

I am really pleased it is working for you & your family! (& I genuinely mean that)

But it's not for me or my family.

Saying that I would never judge someone else who did it.

yanbu at all and I totally agree op, I think that along with feeding your babies/ children healthy food and providing a nurturing, loving environment for them - it is a parents responsibility to teach healthy, life long skills in sleeping well.

I am totally by parents who tremble at the thought of their babies crying, seriously, 5 mins of crying so a baby can learn how to settle themselves to sleep over a baby that wakes every hour all night - umm I know which one I chose.

A non sleeper is a fucking nightmare! Anyone can say what they want but until you've been there.....

My 13 month old slept from 7pm to 6am for the first time ever two nights ago. We've tried everything, you get desperate and do what you've got to do to help the whole family. A baby who is awake from 2am until 4am every evening is going to be significantly affected during the day as will her/ his family.

I agree. Especially when a parent is on their knees with exhaustion, which brings its own risks. Though there is normally a big difference on MN between responses on AIBU/chat and the Sleep forum, Sleep obviously being a much more supportive area.

Each to their own, though. If someone is happier with disrupted sleep than with some form of sleep training then that is fine for them.

the thing is if someone asks a public forum for their opinions on sleep training then everyone can put their view forward and their reasons for it. Unfortunately the negatives of other techniques is part of that reason - so simply explaining those reasons offends those who have chosen that technique - mix in the fact that perceived attacks on one's parenting can be quite emotive.

that said no one should be aggressive but once folk feel offended the gloves are off and biscuits are out unfortunately.

but yabu people are allowed their opinion and to voice it in a public forum

see I just don't get the criticism either way. each parent does what is best for their family don't they?

why in earth would anyone have a set position on any aspect of parenting? we are all different and families and babies are all different.

I did what I needed to do to as a parent to survive myself so I could keep healthy and sane for my kids and they meant getting a decent nights sleep.

each to their own.

op you are doing great. good on you.

Ds1,2 and 3 didn't sleep through until they were 2. With ds3 I used gradual retreat and it wotked really well.

Id already decided when ds4 was born (2 weeks after ds3 finally started sleeping) that I would be using it again when he turned 1, luckily he slept through from 8 weeks.

Ds3 was a different child once he started sleeping, I think it was cruel of me to have left it so long before dealing with his sleeping tbh

I think those of us who don't use cc or cio are often criticised for not using. It seemed like every bloody person i met when ds was a baby was telling me to leave him to cry and would not drop it when i told them i was gong to.

Thanks bigkidsdidit that's really helpful. It is really important for me to be able to establish a routine and go back to work. Otherwise i'm going to be one stressed mummy which will not be any good for DD....

I think for me that is the bottom line. I don't want to leave DC crying but i also, will be absobloody useless if i can't do the things i need to do too.

I feel like everyone is being reasonable. IS MUMSNET BROKEN?!

...we will adapt to each other.

YANBU.

Some of the most vile bullying and guilt-inducing tactics I have seen on here has been from supposedly touchy-feely AP types, towards people who are obviously at the end of their rope.

Cat I say it on every sleep thread (I am not her, promise!) but if you have £200 you can spare go to Andre Grace. She helped us through the whole process. She is marvellous.

I don't do CC at all, but that's me personally. I don't judge people whose situations necessitate some manner of sleep training, be it gentle retreat, controlled crying or what have you. It's all well and good for me to let 15mo ds still co-sleep all night long, but there's nothing in my personal life that stops that working for us. If life was different, I imagine I would need to look into something that got him sleeping in his own bed all night long.

I feel like everyone is being reasonable. IS MUMSNET BROKEN?!

I remember catgirl's thread. It was such a harsh response I think I PM'd her in support as well as on thread (had different username at the time - it was MN pre-Yonis!). Glad to see this one is more measured!

bigkidsdidit - exactly that!

Our DS2 has just, finally begun to sleep through (7-6.30ish) at 9 months. DS1 is 2.5 and pretty full on, our family life was beginning to suffer and we were at the end if our tether as to how to teach/help DS2 to settle/sleep. Finally having been vehemently anti CC we gave it a go. It fucking hurt quite honestly but has to be the best decision we could have made. DS2 is a different child, so much happier, daytime naps have come together by themselves.