aibu to be sick of seeing bfing vs ffeeding debates?

[ImNotABarbieGirl]

That's it really. I've just turned the tv on and AGAIN...there it is! It just infuriates me.

I still bfeed dd (22 months) I already live with friends and family making me feel uncomfetable, ignoreing little funny jokes/comments about it. I really do not need to turn the television on and hear some woman spouting how its disgusting etc on national television.

It annoys me moreso (sp?) That it is never a fair debate. It is always two extremest type people who just want to point out how wrong, disgusting etc the other party is.

Surely most people have access to information and support out there to make an informed choice about what's best for them. So what is the point of all this then? It seems its just another way for us to belittle eachotherparenting choices


Please excuse grammer/spelling

[ImNotABarbieGirl]

Flowers, but the majority of time its not about educating people of their options. Its two opposing groups insulting and berading eachother. Its the fact it seems to be used as entertainment mmore than education.

[Minifingers]

"but the majority of time its not about educating people of their options"


The only place women who choose not to breastfeed will EVER be exposed to a vigorous and detailed discussion of the evidence on feeding choices will be on boards like this, on ff/bf debates. This is not an issue women will discuss freely amongst themselves as most of the time they are too focused on protecting each other's feelings and prioritise that above everything else. Understandably.

I have been absolutely amazed how commonly people on these boards rubbish as 'lactivist propaganda', 'scare mongering' and 'myth', information about the benefits of breastfeeding which have been presented as facts on NHS patient information sites for years and which are included all all mainstream midwifery textbooks.

It seems to me that most people make an instinctive choice how they will feed their baby - they do what they feel emotionally comfortable and culturally familiar with, and they then turn away from all information that might make them feel ambivalent or anxious about their choice. That's why debates on this issue arouse such strong feelings. People don't want to have their views challenged - on either side. I say - challenge views if they aren't rooted in the evidence. Breastmilk or formula is our babies' sole food for six months - they deserve for us to take it seriously and ask the right questions about it. It's not right or fair that this is seen only as a lifestyle choice for adults. It is primarily a public health issue, and it is about babies as much as it is about mothers.

[boydonewrongagain]

I didn't think you were bu op but apparently after reading this thread I'm an uneducated lower class young mum for not bf'ing dd2

When actually shock horror I was a breastfeeding support worker when i didn't breast feed dd2!

I was on critical care after having my dd2 bad didn't properly meet her or stay awake for more than an hour that week. Call me a bad mum but breastfeeding was nor on my mind perhaps dbf should have come along and milked me like a cow in order to make me a better mother!

When I came out I tried to express but having lost pretty much all my blood volume when I had dd2 with goodness knows how many blood transfusions I found it bloody exhausting I tried to establish bf but knew myself as a bf support worker I was trying to give myself a mission impossible I tried expressing but that added to a newborn baby, plus toddler plus hb level of 7 on leaving hospital I decided to cut myself some slack and formula feed. I'm not ashamed of it I don't regret it and it was my decision to make and being a unisef bf support worker I knew all the advantages and disadvantages of bf.

I think sometimes people are so fixated on bf that the mothers health is not taken into consideration at all.

I've sat with mums who have tried to breastfeed when the entire sensation of it makes them cry. Should these women spend the next however long they choose to breastfeed for crying and dreading the next feed so much they can't enjoy their baby.

As much as I support breastfeeding mothers I always make it fully clear to my employer that I would never make a woman feel emotionally blackmailed into continuing bf when they genuinely don't want to but I'm sorry to say there are a lot in my camp that do and a few on this thread who sound like they'd do that too.

Everyone knows the advantages and disadvantages quite clearly but look around you as an adult can you tell who was breastfed and who wasn't I certainly can't.

My dd2 is just as healthy as dd1 as I always made sure she was properly fed with sterilised bottles, well clothed and loved infinitely as I did with dd1 except she was bf.

I don't think bf or ff is worthy of an I'm better than you attitude they are both the same thing. Feeding babies!

[FrogsGoWhat]

I quite like the "I support you" campaign recently - actually made me cry.

Lots of mothers saying "I support you" however you/they feed their babies.... that's how it should be!

[Lazyjaney]

I have been absolutely amazed how commonly people on these boards rubbish as 'lactivist propaganda', 'scare mongering' and 'myth', information about the benefits of breastfeeding which have been presented as facts on NHS patient information sites for years and which are included all all mainstream midwifery textbooks

I actually bothered to read the research when I had mine, it's not nearly as clear as it's held to be. A lot of the "Bf benefit" data conflates first and developing world issues around water and food hygiene, and the social demographics (in the First world BF is mainly an educated middle class behaviour). In short, in the First World, after weaning there is negligible provable benefit to the baby and a small benefit to the mother re some health risks, but they are not major.

[Minifingers]

It reminded me of the recent SMA adverts.

And had a link to a site which is primarily about rubbishing the belief that breastfeeding has any benefits at all.

And lots and lots and lots of pictures with slogans saying 'it makes no difference to babies how they are fed' or words to that effect. Which flies in the face of decades of medical evidence.

As you can imagine, I didn't think it was 'all that'.

But I imagine it's a huge hit on ArseBook given the number of people who have had difficult experiences of breastfeeding/don't want to breastfeed.

[wickerbasketcase]

Mini fingers I can assure you I have read all the evidence, weighed it and made my own decision. I am confident in my own professional credentials. The fact that you resort to personal insult speaks volumes. Personally, I was shocked as a new mother that there was an information vacuum about how to safely prepare and use formula. My string feeling is that the breast feeding message is out there loud and clear. Those with an 'axe to grind' like yourself, do the cause no favours. For what it's worth, I encourage mothers to BF, in line with guidance. That said, my strong opinion is that a happy mum FFing her child is a far healthier situation than a strung out mum trying and failing to BF, slipping into PND and not giving her child the stimulation they need in other ways. I've seen the scenario several times despite provision of breast feeding support yadda yadda yadda. I assume you also have experience of personally bringing up multiples no?

[Minifingers]

"A lot of the "Bf benefit" data conflates first and developing world issues around water and food hygiene, and the social demographics (in the First world BF is mainly an educated middle class behaviour)."

Well you clearly didn't read any of the evidence referred to on NHS sites, as all of the research current NHS recommendations are based on come from developing countries (mainly the UK) and control for education and social class (among other things).



"In short, in the First World, after weaning there is negligible provable benefit to the baby and a small benefit to the mother re some health risks, but they are not major."

The Lullaby Trust is the main SIDS charity in the UK. They state that 'breastfeeding reduces the risk of SIDS, with one overview report concluding that breastfeeding reduces the incidence by approximately half." Given that SIDS takes at least 300 babies a year in the UK I think that's worth consideration. Breastfeeding also saves the lives of dozens of mothers every year in the UK and is now thought to prevent a good number of cases of type 2 diabetes as well.

It's the same old, same old. People denying the benefits of breastfeeding, saying 'I've read the research' but then making it really clear that they HAVEN'T read or understood up to date research - the research that current recommendations are based on. Over and over again people insist that all the studies are inaccurate because they don't take into account the fact that better off people tend to breastfeed when actually the studies DO take social class, education and income into account.

http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/News-and-Research/Research/Breastfeeding-research---An-overview/ here

I really urge people who want to know more to have a look at this site and get an overview of the range of research into this issue, to realise how much of it there is, how complex it is. To realise that, yes - research into infant feeding is fraught with difficulties (because of the impossibility of constructing RCT's and controlling for other influencing factors), but that doesn't justify rubbishing it or writing it all off, EVEN IF IT SUITS YOU TO DO SO BECAUSE IT IS EMOTIONALLY MORE COMFORTABLE FOR YOU TO BELIEVE IT'S ALL A LOAD OF TOSH.

Note by the way the comment at the top: "Below is a list of differences in health outcome associated with method of infant feeding. The studies have all adjusted for social and economic variables. All were conducted in an industrialised setting."

[Minifingers]

"I have read all the evidence, weighed it and made my own decision. I am confident in my own professional credentials."

Your comment that the research current UK recommendations are based on "conflates first and developing world issues around water and food hygiene, and the social demographics." shows you haven't!

here is a review of the research current NHS recommendations are based on. All done in industrial settings. All controlling for education, income and social class.

"Personally, I was shocked as a new mother that there was an information vacuum about how to safely prepare and use formula."

The instructions on the back of every tin of formula are clear and explicit. There are also clear and explicit instructions on NHSchoices NCT, SMA and on every other formula company website, as well as on Baby Centre, Netmums, and Mumsnet. The fact that a large number of women don't make up feeds as per these instructions is not to do with the fact that the information isn't out there. It's because using powdered formula as safely as possible is very difficult when you are trying to feed a newborn baby on demand' as recommended by health professionals.

"That said, my strong opinion is that a happy mum FFing her child is a far healthier situation than a strung out mum trying and failing to BF, slipping into PND and not giving her child the stimulation they need in other ways."

The implication being that I believe a baby should be breastfed no matter what the emotional cost to the mother? Why suggest this? I haven't suggested it or stated I believe this to be the case.


" I assume you also have experience of personally bringing up multiples no?"

Breastfeeding is more of a challenge with multiples of course. But then so can bottlefeeding be a challenge. Some mothers of twins I know find breastfeeding MUCH easier than ff their babies. But that's not here or there in relation to the point I was making, which was about the way these debates tend to evolve. We all know that breastfeeding can be hard or impossible for some mothers. Does that mean as a society we should ignore the evidence on the benefits of breastfeeding or stop discussing it altogether, to protect the feelings of adults who can't do it?

[Lazyjaney]

It's the same old, same old. People denying the benefits of breastfeeding, saying 'I've read the research' but then making it really clear that they HAVEN'T read or understood up to date research - the research that current recommendations are based on

I'm making it clear that i have read it, and that it's far less convincing than all the activists make out.

[wickerbasketcase]

Yawn. You clearly have more time on your hands than me so entertain yourself at will. We will never agree and I have no desire to continue pointless debate.

[Naicehampombeartrexfrootshoot]

Minifingers I've read your posts on the subject on several threads. Do you honestly think your nasty bitchy haranguing style would convince a single person to breastfeed?

My son was only express breast fed because I had enough of dealing with people like you and wasn't prepared to accept any kind of help with latching on when it came accompanied with a lecture about what a bad mother I was if I had to top up my starving baby with a little formula because it took me 10 days post partum to produce milk.

[HoneyDragon]

Do you know what I think is disgusting?

Feeding babies. Honestly they are so needy. If the lazy little fuckers can't get themselves down to Greggs than they should go hungry.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Perhaps instead of debating this time and time again we can actually just start being grateful that we have a choice. That we can so easily get to a shop and buy something to feed our child and not have to make it up with disease ridden muddy water that hippos are weeing in. That support is available to help mums breast feed. We can buy or hire pumps a d thousands of strangers here will offer tips and support to any mum struggling with feeding their baby.

The kids are happy and loved and wanted, and how they are fed is no one else's business.

[boydonewrongagain]

well said wheresmy although im sure someone will be along to tell you yabu soon .

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Probably :o

[mynameisslimshady]

I started reading this thread thinking "I wonder when someone brings up SIDS".

I mean, that usually shuts the formula feeders up doesn't it. Who can argue if you insinuate that the perfectly legal and legitamate way some parents choose to feed their child will put their child at risk of death.

Have you ever been part of one of these studies?

I have, and I know many, many others who have been parts of the studies over the years too. I know how the information is collected, and I know how it varies from area to area, I also know they have little more than a tick list in some areas and very detailed questionnaires in others. I know a large amount of people have declined to be in these studies and I also know some people haven't been entirely honest in them too.

Nobody has ever provided factual evidence that bf decreases the risk of SIDS as far as I am aware, its all based on (pretty flawed as far as I am concerned) statistics.

Also ff/bf is linked to all sorts of lifestyle choices. So why is the statistical decrease attributed to how you feed your child?

I really wish people wouldn't use SIDS as some sort of threat on these threads. It pisses me off beyond belief.

Slimshady - Mum of a gorgeous son who died from SIDS (who was ebf not that it matters)

[Minifingers]

"I'm making it clear that i have read it, and that it's far less convincing than all the activists make out."

You haven't read it. Or if you have read it you have completely failed to notice two things:

The study population is based entirely in an industrialised country.

That the research controls for social class and education and a number of other important confounders.

Just admit it. You can't say this: "A lot of the "Bf benefit" data conflates first and developing world issues around water and food hygiene, and the social demographics" and then insist you've read the research current UK recommendations are based on - which does not draw on evidence from developing countries and controls for social demographics.

I really hope you aren't an NHS health professional LazyJane. Because if you are, and you've been telling your clients that the evidence being used to promote breastfeeding in the UK is based on research done in developing countries, and is severely flawed because of a lack of control of important confounding factors - well, you've been misinforming them. Which is irresponsible. All UK health professionals working for the NHS have a duty to provide information based on up to date, peer reviewed evidence.

The Unicef site I linked to provides that evidence, and in fact is the main source of breastfeeding support, hospital accreditation and training across the health sector.

"Do you honestly think your nasty bitchy haranguing style would convince a single person to breastfeed?"

No - I'm happy to leave the soft-soaping to other people. I'm more interested in flagging up how many people (including health professionals) have a poor knowledge and understanding of the evidence base, and how that distorts the debate on this issue.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Bang on mrsDV

I don't as a rule take any notice of how a baby or child is being fed. None of my business. Surely what's worse is a baby not being fed at all??

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Then the problem is hers miaow it's certainly not yours. Take comfort In the sad pathetic life she must lead if someone else's bottle of milk is the issue of the day :)

[Minifingers]

"I really wish people wouldn't use SIDS as some sort of threat on these threads. It pisses me off beyond belief."

It's not a fucking 'threat' you plonker!

It's a response to 'it makes no difference to a baby how it's fed'. The Lullaby Trust (which is the main UK SIDS charity) debated for YEARS whether to include this information on its site. It waiting for an accumulation of good quality evidence, which was discussed AT LENGTH by panels of advisers, researchers and doctors before being included on its list of recommended behaviours which might reduce the risk of cot death.

There really can't be any sort of adult discussion about this issue if the only aspect of it that anyone's willing to acknowledge is that related to adult feelings. I'm sick to death of reading 'Everyone knows about the health issues' and then seeing a mass of evidence that people DON'T know and don't understand or are intent on minimising and denying in order to save face and protect the feelings of adults.

And I'm not saying adult feelings don't matter. Of course they do. A lot. But they're not the ONLY thing that matters.