To think we are one of the only countries in Europe without a high speed rail link..........

[Ilovemyself]

....... and that the Nimbys should shut up. It will create vast employment and will bring us in line with the rest of Europe's rail network.

After all, everyone complained about the M1 or HS1 and they are now classed as vital infrastructure!

Ilovemyself, it is a fact that there is no business case for HS2 (capacity figures vastly inflated and exaggerated, absolutely no account for the effect of modern computer connectivity, people will need to travel for business less and less) the government has lied through its teeth and massively concealed the TRUE environmental impact of HS2, the compensation scheme is an abomination.

The NIMBYs you talk about are hard working people whose main asset, their home, continues to be blighted, their lives are on hold, they cant sell up, which should be their human right to move if they choose. The only people who will be able to afford a ticket will be a fraction of the citizens of this country, ie monied individuals on high salaries who can reclaim the ticket through expenses.

God alone knows how people like you are getting sucked into the lies and distortions of this vanity project. Pointy nosed trains for fat government official.

We need HS2 like a hole in the head. I travel to Salford in Manchester regularly, it is an excellent service, it can be enhanced for future capacity at a fraction of the cost.

Btw the technology being spec'ed out for HS2 is ALREADY obsolete, before they even plan to start building the damn thing in 2017. Think previous massive government defunct projects like the NHS IT system, identity cards, and think HS2. They all have one thing in common, they are flag ship government projects dreamed up by people who couldn't stick to a budget or a project plan if their lives depended on it. They'll burn their way through 80£bn rather than invest in hospitals and schools. And they are lying to the people of this country in the hope people will fall for the smoke and mirrors of their vile promises.

So daisychain. Are you saying we don't need a high speed network or we don't need HS 2

How about building half a million houses instead ?

Yea right cumfy. The Nimbys get in the way of that as well.

I don't live near the route and I rent with no prospect of owning a home so would only benefit from house process dropping but HS2 is the biggest waste of money, which considering we don't have any is a disgrace.
10 minutes off the current journey time?
Spend the money improving existing lines and services and that will benefit everyone more.

It's now cheaper to fly the length of the country then it is to get the train.

I think the money would be better spent adding trains and improving service on existing main lines

Don't buy the excuse that making travel between northern cities and London will take businesses to those northern cities, as they won't have the good links to each other.

HS2 is a complete waste of time and money.
If you're close enough to be affected then I'm surprised you think it's a good use of money.

I'm sorry but I didn't get any further than "nimby"

Yea right cumfy. The Nimbys get in the way of that as well.

Well, I'm glad we're agreed it's a good idea in principle.

In my area there's a lot of new build and regeneration going ahead with apparently little if any opposition.

No one has said if they think a high speed rail
Network is a good idea or not. Is it a case of that units any argument.

I guess once again we will lag behind other countries when we used to be a leader.

This "article" sums up my feelings for it: www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/hs2-to-make-london-even-bigger-2013012857772

And made me laugh.

By building HS2 we will be lagging behind. Countries who were building high speed conventional rail in the 1980s were doing the leading. Since we haven't invested billions and several decades in HSR, we have the perfect opportunity to leapfrog everyone else and look at some genuinely exciting technology. But are we? Nup, because middle-aged civil servants like train sets and have no vision. Depressing.

We're an Island - a small one at that. We simply don't have the same amount of ground to cover that other European countries do, so imho HS2 is way down on the list of things we actually need.

Upgrading and improvement on existing train/bus routes would be cheaper and benefit a larger proportion of people.

HS2 is basically a luxury - it'd be great to say we had it, but we certainly don't need it.

I agree with you OP. I'm highly unlikely to ever use or benefit from HS2, but I still think its a good thing that needs to happen.

I feel for people whose houses may be devalued because of it, but buying a house is an investment. Investments always come with some risk, buying a house is not a guarantee of profit, and people will still have the home they bought, or they will be compensated.

Too much of the country's wealth is concentrated in one place, and that needs to change, especially as living in the capital is unaffordable for so many people.

I guess the Netherlands and Belgium shouldn't have bothered with their high speed links then, as they are even smaller than the UK.

If you want to travel long distances in the UK you are stuck with the existing infrastructure which is slow and not as good as the high speed networks.

Having travelled to London via an intercity service and then on to Paris via Eurostar I know which I think is the best.

A high speed link WOULD benefit many people - if costs to use it were not stupidly high.

Madbuslady. I agree that we are 20 year or more behind. But it's better than nothing which some people are advocating.

Is wealth attracted to London precisely because of it's local transport infrastructure though?

If Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds had the same standard of rail/tube/buses and were easier and reliable to navigate would they attract an equal boost in the economy?

You might be able to get from London to Birmingham 30 minutes faster - means bugger all when you step off the train in Birmingham at 12am and can't reach your actual destination because of Birminghams infrastructure.

Imagine being able to travel from Manchester to Paris in just under 4 hours. It has both business and personal attractions.

You can do that if you fly.

We are not a big country with lots of space to build HS2. Will it really mean more jobs? Where will those jobs be?

Manchester is having it's tram network hugely expanded, which is a good thing. You need other citiesto have ddecent internal transport too.

And as far as HS2. Seems a bit pointless if its going to be prohibitively expensive. Manchester to London is already obscenely expensive, this isn't going to make itany cheaper.

Ilovemyself - I gave it quite a few hours before responding as I wanted to see what responses you receive from other MN'ers. Not many!

I don't like the 'goady' nature of your post - ... and that the Nimbys should shut up is a pretty dull and unimaginative way of getting people involved - in fact one person decided not to even read beyond your NIMBY comment - I applaud them, and I too feel underwhelmed. I am disappointed that you are so woefully ill-informed by a debate you chose to start. At least get your basic facts right before calling other people names!

For a start, NIMBY'ism, in case it has escaped your notice and understanding means that a person doesn't want something in their Back Yard, but they don't mind it being shifted somewhere else, as long as it isn't near them. In the context of HS2, the people you call NIMBY's don't want HS2 anywhere, they have no confidence in the Government wasting their tax-money on a non-priority initiative - get the difference? Hospital A&E's are closing, existing rail services can be upgraded at half the cost - no, the Government would rather a glossy project to put their name to, at north of £80Bn.

Since the Government HS2 project was officially kicked off by the, then Labour Minister, Lord Adonis, and the details of HS2 were released into the public domain, forensic examination of HS2 Business Case, passenger no's, environment, compensation, finances/bus plan and technologies has been done by civil engineers, project managers, business analysts (I am a BA - btw, not linked to HS2 or the gov't) and other professionals. They have torn the HS2 myth to shreds. As a tax payer I would advise you to avail yourself of the real truth about HS2, not government spin, because you are allowing yourself to sleep-walk into waste that our children and our children's children will be paying for, long after the Government ministers have stopped drawing their pensions.

To respond to your question - do I want HS2 and/or high speed rail? You are missing the point. What I want is for our elected Government to be truthful, to provide accurate data about the Project, to us as intelligent people, not treat us like idiots. They forget that the Internet, Freedom of Information and better education enables UK tax payers paying for HS2 to get hold of facts and data, do the analysis and see throught their lies and distortions concealed within glossy leaflets and flashy videos of pointy nosed trains.

One of your threads, Ilovemyself, mentions the vast employment HS2 will generate - where did you get that idea from? Clearly from Government propaganda - do you know the vast majority of jobs will be in London, so how is that benefitting employment in the North?

Do you know that the French, Spanish and Polish governments have recently axed their High Speed Rail extension projects, because they have failed to be convinced of sustainable business value of high speed rail. We should take their lead and not be sucked into the Government spin.

My knowledge is based on facts and data - what is your knowledge based on ....I hope you look further than the Government rhetoric, their erroneous projections in their ill-conceived project plan created by inept people who cannot organise a p*-up in a brewery. When the government stops prioritising HS2 over hospital A&E's, when they put forward a holistic plan for all UK rail services not piece-meal, bereft of integration (HS2 does not have Heathrow in its plan!! how mad is that???), then it will be in the correct order of things.

The core principle of large UK government infrastructure projects is that they MUST benefit the majority of its citizens. HS2 will fail to deliver that, and the Government is struggling to justify it.

HopALongOn - the Manchester tram system is excellent and affordable and I agree, it is a transport model that should be rolled out to all cities across UK. It handles inner city congestion very effectively, plus lower pollution levels. Then city to city transport investment can be upgraded affordably and commensurate with the finances in the UK government coffers (which at the moment is rock-bottom)!

I don't like the term NIMBY bandied about as an insult.

Before I gave up I dealt with compensation in a case where a major road was built and people's lives were majorly affected. Some of the cases were truly awful.

FWIW I totally supported the road in this instance and it has proved to be excellent for local economy. But when you have 90 year old men crying in your office over it, you understand people aren't just opposed for the sake of it

btw - how will people avail themselves of High Speed Rail?

Aaah yes, they have to get into their cars or take the tube/train to catch the HS train in London or Birmingham (and the Birmingham HS station is not in the centre of Brum, so you then have to struggle in ... in a taxi). Wonderful - 20 mins off the journey and an extra hour and a half added to catch the HS train in the first place.

Isn't the UK Government's logic for its integrated transport plan just amazing.

I live on the HS1 route. In fact I lived on it when the protests against it being built were being made in the 80's. At that time we terrorised by the horror it would bring, the noise, the blight etc. people thought their property prices would be decimated.

Yes, due to major fuckedupedness a lot of people lost their homes to compulsory purchase on routes that were never eventually used which is reprehensible.

But, now the line is built it's very impressive. Many stations which also serve normal trains are also HS stations, so commuters can walk just like they do now. Their journey times have been slashed. Property has increased in price as a result.

Ebbs fleet has great public transport, which is actually more convenient than driving.

The train is so quiet you can hardly hear it even when you're standing really close. It is also cut very deep so it's not a blight on the landscape as much as you'd imagine.