To disagree with swimming teacher over girls having top half on show

[Charlottehere]

I don't think I am. Dd, age 4 has just had her weekly swimming lesson. I couldn't find her swimming costume so put her 8 year old sister's on her. The costume was obviously big and hung down on her so one nipple was exposed. Shock.

While dd was in her lesson, a member of the admin staff called me into the office. I was told that female swimming teacher was worried that the male teacher would be embarrassed and it wasn't fair that dd swimming costume was too big and could I make sure she had one that fit next time.

I told him I thought that was ridiculous and have no issue with a 4 year old being uncovered at a swimming pool.

What do you think?

Boffin, the no photos at school thing is sometimes because there is a child who would be endangered. Domestic violence, in care, some other reason why the child's location should not be shared. Which it would be if parents of other children went and stuck their pictures on Facebook and shared it with friends and family, who might share it with other friends and family...

Otherwise i'm with you on paedophile hysteria. As for the receptionist in the OP - the only issue I can see is that the OP's dd's costume didn't fit, which is not great when you are swimming.

(Obviously the school can't tell parents 'there's a child at risk if photos are taken' as that would lead to gossip.)

I don't think it's ridiculous ilovegeorgeclooney I think it's inappropriate and a distraction from real risks, in much the way that boffin (more eloquently) has said.

Our fear of ppl being falsely accused is out of proportion with the reality of its likelihood.

I do think that the incident speaks more about the need for municipal services to exert control over patrons than concern over anyone's safety.

Wmilythornesbff. It's he adults that are being superior or self righteous that are the problem. Of course small children don't make false allegations. But adults do. If you work with children you have to be so careful in what you say or do - I work with children in a sporting environment once a month and we can't even talk to a child on their own in full view of adults without people shouting and complaining

That is mainly about sporting issues, but all you have to do is put your arm round a child to comfort them ( a perfectly harmless thing for a caring adult) and people start thinking and saying all sorts.

Yes. It's the adults. I agree.

I was going to saywhat EmilyThorne said but I see she's said it...

I used to deal with safeguarding.This scenario is just Bollocks and lots of what's in this thread is actually just people saying 'oh you can't do anything these days' No - it is more difficult for people to abuse children than it used to be. It is still OK for a four year old to have his or her nipples uncovered and anyone who thinks it's not really needs to have a good look at what they're teaching their kids about their bodies.

Namechanges. It may be harder for abuse to happen, but people are more paranoid and likely to make spurious allegations. As I said, parents in the sport I am involved in can get really funny about things.

Tbh I still think the fear of allegations is still far greater the reality.

Besides. This particular scenario is another example of how we hold girls responsible for the behaviour of others by passing judgement on their appearance/ dress / demeanour.
What we should be doing is actually noticing the behaviour of the adults around them. And we should be better at actually listening to children.

This is one of the reasons I will never ever work with children, as much as my dream career is as a teacher there is no way I would be put in this type of situation.

I agree Emily. But if you are afraid of it happening you do whatever is necessary to stop it. Which is why we have over reactions like the person at the pool, or stupid h&s rules.

I don't think the risk of accusation is ridiculous, my friend was a wonderful teacher, husband and father and he is dead because of idle gossip developing to malicious slander. I work in education and regularly innocent situations are questioned and it is only by rigorously enforcing safeguarding rules more such incidents are avoided. There are people who would have questioned why the girl's swimsuit was "pulled" down. It is mad, it is hysteria but it could happen and destroy a young man's life.
What I think is ridiculous that the OP cannot see she should put her child in a swimsuit that fits.
I live a stones throw from the beach and small children, including mine once, run around virtually naked which is fine but the adults in charge of them are their parents. It is a completely different situation at a public swimming pool. It is easy to mock H and S but if abandoned children would, and have been in the past, be vulnerable. All the pool asked was for a child to be put in swim wear that fits, how is that unreasonable?

Well, I agree that malicious gossip is awful and probably does go on.
Although that's not really the same as an accusation of abuse.
I didn't say that the risk of accusations of abuse were ridiculous btw.
But it isn't anywhere near as common as actual abuse or as common as ppl seem to be suggesting.

I'm very sorry to hear about your friend.
That's awful and tragic.
Sadly, whilst your friend was innocent, there a rafts of ppl who have been justly accused of abuse and whose nearest and dearest would never believe it of them.

I maintain that I think the staff at the pool didn't handle the situation well. And I agree with boffin that it sounds likely to be about beaurocracy rather than anyone's safety.
and that it doesn't really matter if a 4 yo girl's nipples are not covered up.
She is four years old and in a swimming pool in full view of her mother.
To suggest that another teacher might be embarrassed by this is inappropriate.it makes ppl wonder about him. Why would he be embarrassed? That's the sort of idle bollocks that leads to tongue wagging. Not what the chld was wearing.

And honestly, I am not one to mock H&S or safeguarding measures.

I just think we need to be looking in the right direction to keep children safe, rather than getting caught up with red herrings.

Boffin If I had gold stars to hand out you would have them all!

Absolutely 100% correct.

You also inadvertently highlighted another evil of all of this...that it gets used as a scape goat for things that either don't have a reason or have a different reason, and thus respect is lost for the whole idea.

The photos at sports days thing might also be ridiculous (I understand the reason and believe that it is a worth REASON, just not a worthy response). People will take photos of their kids playing with friends, at birthdays etc. So does it really make a difference to only prevent people taking photos as sports days?

ICBINEG

"The photos at sports days thing might also be ridiculous"

If you new some of the Looked After Children that I do you wouldn't think it ridiculous

I thought all swimming teachers would have a clearly defined attitude to how do deal with moments of semi-exposure. After all; the children are minimally clothed as routine and costumes do shift around during movment . Surely embarrassment would only come once children's bodies start developing. At 4 - I would say that what was said is ridiculous. How awkward for you.

What the actual fuck?

They are suggesting that a nipple on a 4 year old is the same as a breast.

That in so unbelievably inappropriate. There is nothing inappropriate about what your daughter was wearing, other than for her own comfort.

I would kick up an obscene fuss about their comment which sexualises my child if I were you.

Boney that is exactly the ridiculous sort of response we are talking about.

If I knew children like this I would think exactly what I think now. That we should protect them in ways that actually work. I don't see how banning photos at schools does this. Hence my problem with it.

Thefantasticfixit. No one is saying that a nipple and a breast are the same thing. What is being said, and is true, is that if you work with or have contact with children you cover your arse to make sure NO scurrilous accusation can be made against you.

But they are suggesting a 4 yr old's nipple is the same/ similar to a breast. Otherwise they wouldn't be making insane comments about embarrassment.
Who on earth would be embarrassed by a 4 yo girl's nipple?
The staff created the embarrassment and awkwardness.

How did the staff cause the embarrassment. Thy are covering their arses. In my experience of working with children you have to cover your arse in this sort of situation because there is a risk, no mater who small, that someone will cause you trouble with allegations that are not correct.

I know you are right with the fear is more than it actually happening, but do you want to take the risk? I don't so I am
Doubly careful.

No.
This is not being careful. It is misguided.
Ppl who make this kind of suggestion have no understanding of the issues they claim to care about and require appropriate training.

They caused embarrassment by stating that the male teacher might be embarrassed by a small child's naked chest.
Saying that suggests he has some reason to be embarrassed.

If it was a 15y o girl, or a 20 yo woman then he is likely to be embarrassed (or whatever) because it is potentially arousing and embarrassing for a man to be "exposed to" a young woman's breasts.
It is not reasonable to suggest that the same is similar for a man "exposed to" the torso of a four year old.
Only a man who you would not want to be teaching your daughter to swim would be embarrassed. He did not say he was embarrassed. Someone else took it upon themselves to make an inappropriate comment. About him.

Children need to be protected from (alarmingly common) abuse and ts should be protected from (extraordinarily rare) false "accusations"
The scenario described in the op does neither.