Aibu to have thought that the class system ended when the servant system did?

[RipRC]

I am Irish living in Ireland but did live in UK for a number years. I honestly thought that the class system was dead and buried and yet I have seen it mentioned on here quiet frequently.
Does it still exist, if so can you give me an idea of what type of people belong in each class, how does your occupation influence your class and indeed your behaviour? Can people move up and down classes according to their own life style? And how much is this class system actually acknowledged today?
Personally speaking I am glad there is no class system here in Ireland.

I didn't say that it was exactly the same as the English system (I'm not even British), I said class - as a system that socially divides people as well as exploits - exists internationally. The English didn't invent class, class shouldn't be viewed purely by English standards.

A system of servants and slaves still exists. The government's acceptance of it (which I would argue it does accept, as it does so little about it and tries to benefit from it as much as possible by not protecting people or giving access to enforcement of rights for those in that situation, particularly as that main reason the government stepped in on either was economic reasons) has nothing to do with whether or not it is a real system or whether their existence affects society and the existence of class.

Income, possessions, and the perception of a person's worth by their access to these is what class is, any formal system is built on top of that and is not required for class to exist. Class is allowed to divide socially, allows and encourages, if not requires, the exploitation of others, and effects people's life chances. That is what class currently does to society. We can call it whatever we like, academically it's called class, we can call "upper class" people snobs or aristocrats or bourgeoisie or hipsters, we can call all "lower class" proletariat, chavs, the underclass, dossers, but it doesn't change the system as it's core. The core is that class exists internationally and still harmful. Whether or not the government tries to legislate one subsection does not affect the whole.

ive given this much thought over the years because on paper I should be middle class. but i'm not. I don't want to be - but that is beside the point.

class is very much a culture, one can be middle class and skint. one can be upper class and skint ( and in cash terms, they often are)

One can be working class and be stinking rich.

Well apparently I may have started this thread for my publication, a couple of you guys love a good old conspiracy theory. If I wanted to start a thread perpetuating the fact (not myth) that Ireland is a fab place to live I would do just that. The fact that Ireland is indeed a lovely place to live does not mean that other countries are not, that's a very immature opinion you have there. I personally have and could again, live happily in many other countries including England.

I think you and I must live in different Ireland RipRC....

Different Irelands I mean

if Ireland is so fabby how come everyone leaves?

So how do you classify those of us that are from other countries - do we get a pass or have my colleagues secretly graded me?

Very interesting comment. When I was a student in the UK, the class system was more evident than it is now (and I was in Scotland). Friendship groups did seem to organize themselves around class to a surprisingly large extent. I found that as an American, I had a sort of class-free status and so had friends of all classes. I had a group of working class friends that I met through my course, a group of middle class friends that I formed at my hall of residence, and I even had some upper class friends that I met through a society I joined.

Little spook that's a very well made point and food for thought.

Takingthemick, I didn't get to read all that thread but it was one of the ones that lead me to start this one. I found the op where humous and two fairly normal names were mentioned confusing, it sounded pretty normal to me, not that I have kids by those names or eat humous but ykwim. I think I wii have a full read and see if indeed most of us irish are middle class. I did the test on the BBC link I gave and apparently because we socially know people who are solicitors, managing directors we are middle class. :-p

Would that be Romantic Ireland or The Ireland we have dreamed of.....open your eyes RIPRC. You seem a tad delusional to me.......

Nuggets what part at you in, I am in the west.

yah u sound like a culchie

Dublin Rip but not a native.

I know people that would talk about class - in fact recently a friend of a friend who I was chatting to (and didn't have much time for) later asked my friend if the reason I didn't like him was because of the "class divide" (as he considered himself 'higher' than me if you know what I mean).

Also when I was a teenager, my boyfriend's mother told him he should break up with me when she found out where I was from as he shouldn't be mixing with people from "different social circles". Funnily enough she'd liked me perfectly well until she knew where I lived

People may not use the 'formal' terms as much but they are still class aware. Maybe if you're "middle class" yourself you haven't been exposed to it as much? (not saying you are but just surmising).

Also suppose I am a bit at your comment that it's a fact that Ireland's a lovely place to live with all the doom and gloom at the moment and them eejits we have in government (each successive party seems to be worse than the last). But I suppose it's got it's good points too!

If you pay someone to work in your home they are your employee not your servant

I don't understand this distinction. What, objectively, is the difference between a domestic employee and a servant?

(Maybe it wouldn't be polite nowadays to describe a domestic employee as a servant, but other than terminology, I'm not understanding what difference you see between the two.)

Burberry if calling me a culchie is meant to be an insult you are showing your ignorance. I am a culchie and proud, def not middle class I come from a farming background and choose to live on said farmland.

Yes nugget there are problems in Ireland it's far from perfect as to the idiots running the country I have never lived in any country with an efficient government so I have low expectations.

At the moment all it's taking to make me happy is the thoughts of mayo winning the all Ireland.;-)

I just meant you sound a bit......naive let's say...a touch unworldly and inexperienced in life perhaps? Deluded even.

and I do think you started this thread to have a dig at the English

so don't call me "ignorant" ok...pot? kettle? black?

Burberry I didn't call you ignorant, read the post. So now you are accusing me of starting this thread to have a dig at the English, make up your your mind.
I started this thread because until I joined mn I really thought people did not refer to class, the amount of times I see it referred to on here is amazing so I wanted to get a better understanding of how it works or how normal people perceive it to be.

You said she was showing her ignorance, pretty much the same thing in my book. Hope it's lovely living in your little Mayo bubble - you sound awfully insular to me - is Mao multi-channel these days?

Of course I meant "Mayo" but happy to explain who Mao was in case you hadn't heard of him

londonman, on your discription, what is the difference between any employee and a servant - not sure what the difference is between a cleaner and someone working at card factory - except the cleaner is probably getting paid more

Tortington - I'm not sure I see a distinction between any employee and a servant. I'm not sure why you ask me, if I can't see the difference in a narrow context then I'm probably not the best person to see the difference in a wider context.

Employees of the government are "civil servants" and I think I've heard the phrase "servant of the company" used in relation to company employees. (Though can't find any support for the latter in Google. Also recall that my first job in the UK my contract described me as an "officer of the company" and I'm not sure if one can both be an "officer" and a "servant". No doubt a lawyer will be along shortly to clarify.)

I've just googled servant and the first definition that comes up gives the following meanings.

1. One who is privately employed to perform domestic services.

2. One who is publicly employed to perform services, as for a government.

3. One who expresses submission, recognizance, or debt to another: your obedient servant.

To be honest, darlings, in today's sea of electronic communication the only thing that sets apart the classes are the use of such rudimentary acronyms as 'AIBU' or 'OMG'. ('lol')

The class system IS dead, the internet killed it. There's still a few confused losers clinging onto its slowly decaying remains. It's best to ignore them, they will soon be gone.

It's ignorant in the extreme to use the term West Brit. I'd love to know if the person who used that term actually knows the etymology of it.

It's also rather ignorant to call the Anglo-Irish merely 'British' or 'English'. Most of this group have been in Ireland for 400 years or more. What's more, identity isn't as fixed as some would like to make out. It's fluid and complicated. It's perfectly possible to feel Irish and Brtish, and up to the point at which The Free State came into existence, most Irish people did not feel the two to be mutually exclusive. Many people in Northern Ireland would still feel that way.

Ironically by starting this thread RipRC you have shown that Ireland does indeed have class distinctions! They are just not referred to in the same way as the British class distinctions - people say 'culchies' or 'knackers' or 'D4s' or 'West Brits'. So we do know how to insult each other, we just base it around different identifiers

I agree with SconeRhymesWithGone and would say the Irish system of social distinction is more like America's. There are equivalent regional snobberies and jokes and insults are more based around behavior than formal economic class e.g people from Noo Joysey, Californians, rednecks, 'Upper East Side' Manhattanites etc. Living here I do feel much more comfortable than in the UK and feel the mindset here is more like the culture I grew up with. That might just be because we're all so Americanized in Ireland these days too though. Especially my family as we always kept close ties to our Yank relatives.

On another note, I see you are a Mayowoman, RipRC? Mayo, God help us! I will neither confirm nor deny whether I am from that neck of the woods but suffice to say that on meeting D4s when I was living in Dublin they would sometimes look at me in puzzlement when I said where I was from as if they were thinking 'do people still live there, loike?'. I would just retaliate by calling them Dublin jackeens! The whole Northside / Southside thing in Dublin is a class system in its own right too I would say.