to think the diet industry is utterly evil?

[ICBINEG]

been watching 'The men that made us thin' and am simply overwhelmed.

So diets don't work....most people end up heavier than if they had not dieted at all...one guy was like "well duh! if they worked we would lose our customers"....another wrote a book aimed at teenage girls including the advice to " buy scales and keep them secret from your parents"

The constant stream of adverts aimed at middle aged women are seen by children who by age 6-7 have self-esteem issues and can quote the number of calories in most foods...

My evil-ometer is broken.

Oh, er, then what I read was wrong. I will have to go back and find it.

I still say that maintaining your willpower in the face of the vast amount of food on offer is still really really really hard.

Wow, no. I would never have scales in my house. That just sounds like the road to neurosis.

Weighing yourself, counting one or two pounds lost or gained (it's normal to fluctuate!), going on diets, going hungry...this is what my DF does.

And he's fat!

No, simply keeping scales in your house and using them once a week/fortnight is not the road to neurosis.

What you DF does is however neurotic.

I'm talking about normal, average, everyday people who are quite sensible and not at all neurotic.

You know, simply checking if their weight is ok...

I know we'd all be forgiven for thinking that everyone is neurotic about their weight (from all the convos on MN)...but honestly there's a bigger world out there with people who can cope with keeping an eye on their weight.

Did you mean , TwoTears?

Twotears
I still say that maintaining your willpower in the face of the vast amount of food on offer is still really really really hard.

Whilst 'going on a diet' no doubt involves hefty amounts of will power (hence failed diets and thriving diet industry), losing weight by making longer term lifestyle changes can be done without will power. Off the shelf diets require will power because they're rule based and quite often very stringent, giving plenty of room for rebellion.

In a way, ours is a generation that have needed more will power to avoid being very overweight. There's another thread running from someone in their 40s talking about children being hungry at school (back before tax credits in a poor town), and I know as a child my parents didnt avoid the frozen, highly processed food due to health concerns, but because they couldn't afford it - it's only really in the last 15-20 years that highly processed food has become the cheap way to eat, rather than massively more expensive than eating "real" foods.

The temptation is greater because over eating on highly processed food is affordable to most people in a way it wasn't in my youth.

The show mentioned said that people who went on a diet weighed more 5 years on than when they started. Was there a control group who carried on eating normally? It strikes me that a group of overweight people will probably carry on gaining weight if they maintain their bad diet/exercise regime so those who never dieted would probably also be significantly heavier 5 years down the line, probably even more so than those who had dieted at some point.
The problem is that we have swallowed the notion that there is a quick fix to all of this, that a "diet" will sort it out and then you can go back to eating crap and being sedentary. It's totally naive, but people don't want to hear that you need to make permanent changes to eat better (fewer calories, smaller portions, less processed food) and move more.
I posted an AIBU about childhood obesity recently which had a lot of interesting responses. I know in animals the number of fat cells they have is set early in life, so if you are a fat puppy you will be much more likely to be a fat dog. I don't know if the same is true in people but it would seem likely that it's a factor and makes it even more important to feed our kids properly and avoid them becoming overweight in the first place.

Bakingtins
The problem is that we have swallowed the notion that there is a quick fix to all of this, that a "diet" will sort it out and then you can go back to eating crap and being sedentary. It's totally naive, but people don't want to hear that you need to make permanent changes to eat better (fewer calories, smaller portions, less processed food) and move more.

I agree about only long-term changes being truly effective. It also strikes me that many people diet to reach some sort of superficial transitory goal - e.g. to fit into a particular outfit on a particular date. How many people really set out to lose weight in order to be healthier forever?

Another issue raised by the thread title and the concept of required willpower - why do people expect/allow somebody else (an industry, even) to manage their diet? Why blame other entities for diets failing? I think that's a huge part of why so many diets aren't sustainable - because the process is not being fully managed/determined by the individual who needs to make long lasting changes.

Interesting thread.

I have been on a health kick for over two years now and I am healthier and 6 stone lighter than when I started. Still have another couple of stone to go and even when/if I get to my healthy BMI weight, I will continue this way of eating and exercise for the rest of my life. If I go back to the way I ate when I was morbidly obese, I will end up morbidly obese again :(

I feel people should do whatever suits them to improve their health and improve their health. The changes people make, need to be permanent and it varies what people can give up forever. I couldn't do very restrictively 1200 calories diets or no carbs or shakes only...good on those people who have the will power to do so.

For me I eat everything in moderation including beer, chocolate and takeaways, which is why my health kick (plus healthy pregnancy) is taking so long...slow and steady that is my aim. It took years to get so fat and it will take me years to get lose it, my way.

Scales wise I think it depends how you use them. Whilst home scales are not very accurate, if you weigh yourself on the same scales wearing same level of clothes at a similar time of day it should show any relative increase or decrease in weight. I weigh myself daily after my shower in the morning before breakfast.

To ignore the natural fluctuations of weight over the month I use software called Trend Weight It automatically smooths out the up and down bits and shows an overall trend line.

I have an Aria scale it will sync via Fitbit website and it automatically updates trend weight. I weigh myself daily but couldn't tell you my weight off the top of my head without looking it up, I step on and off and later on check my trend line on Trendweight...if it is heading downward I'm happy :)

Since using the trend weight software I am much less bothered about how much I weigh on any particular day. I understand that I will move 4lbs up and down in a standard month naturally.

I also measure various bits of me (bust, hips, waist) monthly too.

I hate the money making diet companies which take money off you and teach you nothing, as far as I can see. If I can do it on my own, anyone can.

Actually I would suggest that it is much easier to eat healthily now then when I was a child. We only had full fat milk and my mother was told to get us to drink a pint a day (hence I can't bear the stuff now). I had to fight as a teenager to be allowed semi-skimmed which was new. Everything was fried, never grilled, and the content of things like sausages would turn Jamie's hair grey. The choice and quality of food we have now, at prices much lower (in real terms) than previous generations, means we have NO excuses. Pure laziness and gluttony, IMHO.

I don't think food today is good quality. The meat is pumped full of water and god knows what, the fruit and veg has either been flown thousands of miles or been stored in a warehouse pumped full of chemicals, everything is full of preservatives. And what makes you think sausages are any better now? Ever heard of mechanically reclaimed meat? Even milk isn't the same!
And don't even get me started on why everything is cheaper, that's a whole other thread!
People are deceived into believing they are eating healthily, but they often have no idea what they put in their mouths.

I guess the economic climate and food banks are a figure of my imagination then. Its a lot more complicated than gluttony and laziness and anyone who thinks that is either incredibly stupid or has been reading too many celeb mags or both.

We are told to eat fresh (which costs more) and that its the best thing and then there was all that hype last week about that burger that was grown in a lab and how this is the future of eating.

( not for me i dont like red meat.)

You are right Saggy. Much of what is sold as "healthy" is verging on the criminal. Typically "low fat" fake foods have a long list of quite toxic crap in them to replace the fat (and that whole Fat-is-unhealthy thing is utter bollox anyway).

Turn over the packet and read the ingredients, if you can't pronounce and ingredient, or have no idea what it is, you can be fairly sure you shouldn't be eating it!

The diet industry goes out of it way to keep hyping the low fat message because it sells that crap. And if it make you fatter in the long term, then that's great for profits, you'll keep buying more because its low fat ...

Agree Raw The sugar levels in so called low fat products are through the roof.

The point is you don't need to buy or eat processed products labelled "healthy" just buy, prep, cook (or not) and eat basics foods. My point was that we have access to a far wider range of foods and have sight of what is in processed foods through proper labelling. So you know how much meat is in your sausage, should you choose to buy a sausage. And I think we have trashed the myth that fresh is expensive.

*basic

I am an ex WW member...I was on and off for years, lost shedloads, gained back, the typical yo yo. Making food forbidden, and restricting food (and I'm sorry, but a points range per day counts as restriction), just takes away our bodies' natural responses to hunger and satiety.

I am working toward intuitive eating: eating what I want when I am hungry, and stopping when I am satisfied. I have lost and gained slightly as I try and get the hang of it...I've been on diets for so many years, I literally don't know what real hunger and satisfaction feels like. I don't use scales, I go by how my clothes fit, and 5 months in, my clothes fit exactly the same.

And it's funny...when I gave myself 'permission' to eat WHATEVER I fancied when I was hungry...I ate utter crap...biscuits for breakfast, a whole bag of crisps for lunch for example, but even that has levelled out. I keep no less than 5 packets of biscuits in the house at all times, and I don't think I've eaten even one in the last month or so...the novelty is completely gone, and I no longer binge eat, ever, which I did at least once a week when I was on WW. If I want a slice of cake, I eat the cake and move on. I love to cook, and I am now moving toward eating more whole, real food...no more processed stuff...all food from scratch, baking from scratch, lower sugar, absolutely no low fat diet, fake sweetner loaded garbage, and I feel so much calmer...no more obssessing about food! I now eat more or less three lovely meals a day, and I refuse to ever allow myself to starve ever again.

My last real issue is with exercise...I stopped exercising abruptly mainly because I have never exercised for pleasure...always to lose or maintain weight. I've taken some time away from it, just to clear the slate a little, but slowly need to factor that back in healthily.

You don't need a diet club to help you lose weight...and really, willpower isn't the key either...the key is actually paying attention to hunger and satisfied signals, which you completely and utterly destroy with dieting!

I own scales. I weigh first thing in the morning in undies. The consistent result matters, and if they are a pound or two out, that won't make a difference to being in a healthy zone. As I'm losing my baby weight, I have a target zone to aim for. I know my weight will fluctuate and it's the pattern of weight loss that counts. I keep a spreadsheet with a weekly weigh in. Some weeks stagnate, but it's the general trend that matters, and the general pattern is about a pound a week. I don't want a drastic result as I want to maintain good health while BFing, and I want to keep the weight off.

I am happy for my weight long term to be within a half stone bracket. Any less is not sustainable to me and is getting too thin, any more and although it still falls in a healthy range of BMI (yes, I know it has its serious flaws, but it happens to work for me) and I know I have too much weight for my optimum wellbeing. I've had phases where I've exceded that range, and some simple adjustments to my activity level and diet have returned it down to my healthy range before it became a major problem.

I think we live in a very conflicted society. You have the diet/ food industry and celeb culture flogging quick fixes that aren't sustainable. There's unhealthy temptation everywhere, and eating on the go is a health nightmare. "The Men Who Made Us Fat" was interesting about the creation of the snack/ treat industry from the 70s/ 80s. We are concerned about crushing people's self esteem so can't tell them their weight is putting their health in jepordy, but people can't/ won't see it for themselves. It's all a mess.

I've noticed for people that have lost large amounts of weight and maintained it, a focus on health rather than "diet" and "weight" has been their motivator.

If you think being fat/being on a diet is just about food and knowledge then you are very lucky and have a very good relationship with food.

For the majority of overweight and obese people there is so much more emotional issues with eating, I literally eat my emotions, if I am angry or upset I reach for the nearest food good or bad, small or large portion,just to make myself feel better. I am working though how I feel but it is inaccurate to say people like me are just lacking in knowledge or just lazy :(

Very true, Babieseverywhere...that's exactly why I abandoned the diet track...slimming clubs do NOT help to deal with the emotions that surround eating; that is something that I've needed to tackle in order to get to where I am now. It's not always about the food!! When I was dieting, I emotionally binge ate compulsively with regularity. The absence of dieting has taken that bit away...food is just food now...I've taken the power out of it, which sounds easier than it is, but it does seem to be working for me.

Some salient points in this thread. I don't think it's just the fault of the diet industry though. Someone up thread mentioned looking at their teen pre diet weight and being surprised that it was 'normal'. I'm hazarding a guess that the waif trend of skinny models such as Kate Moss that emerged when I was a teen or twiggy when my parents were have a LOT to do with the diet trend.
I personally think I look pretty OK most of the time, am happy with my weight when at home. We have no magazines and watch minimal TV so I'm not too bombarded with 'perfect' women. I notice a huge drop in self esteem once I leave the safety of my own home and am confronted with multifarious images of gorgeous, impossibly thin women who are groomed to within an inch of their lives. And how do I react to this? I feel guilty, I feel fat and not disciplined enough, I feel like a failure, and then I eat, because that's the 'go to' reaction of a lot of people....

We've been fed such a huge diet of 'go on, treat yourself, you deserve it' marketing in direct opposition to the 'eat better, feel better, look better' health campaigns that its not surprising that so many people (even those who well understand the direct correlation between excess eating and weight gain) are yo-yoing. We medicate almost all of our emotional stresses with unhealthy food, and there is more and more pressure and stress the loser we become, and less and less time to spend making truly healthy food compared to convenience food. And I speak as someone who makes most of my meals from scratch...they still tend to be largely carb based, because carbs keep for longer which means I have to shop less.

So the other issue we desperately need to tackle in our time pressed highly stressed modern world is the HUGE availability of high convenience high fat and calorie snack and ready meals available.

If you head into the local corner shop or garage or even supermarket the proportion of tasty, healthy, attractive looking snacks is MINISCULE or even non existant compared to the vast row upon row of unhealthy, high calorie fat-fests of chocolate, crisps sausage rolls, etc.

It's all totally fucked up really isn't it. ESP for those of us with weak wills.

That should be the older we become!

worra

"A weekly 'internet weigh in' is not a weigh in at all."

Aww you cynic! I see what you mean obviously...but ...no I can't believe anyone in our little gang has lied!

People posted before and after pics when they hit big milestones.....and...well...we weren't lying!

We talked a lot...I don't know if that happens at WW. We let a lot of our angst and self hatred hang out there....because we didn't know each other. We have each talked another of the ledge after a binge etc.

I think it had some advantages as well as the potential pitfall you mention!

Interestingly, looking at the graphs on the 5:2 fast diet website, I think people are more honest when they are anonymous

and for people like myself who have put (admitedly carefully timed) pictures of ourselves on our profiles its pretty hard to con people

darkeyes That sounds like a terrible experience! Fast weight loss really is dangerous!

babies scales that tell you only a month averaged trend would be awesome! No more fear of the scales! Only the information that you can use and act on and nothing to induce massive guilt or binging!

everyone stop drawing a distinction between the 'diet' and 'food' industry...it is the same people/companies. Heinz own WW and Unilever own almost everyone else...(and are massive food industry players).