To not understand the way some people's perception of risk (specifically cars), especially in the UK.

[honeytea]

A couple of recent threads have made me wonder why some things are seen as very dangerous and to be avoided and some things are seen as acceptable even if statistics show they are infact dangerous.

There are so many health and safety rules about everything in the uk, warnings about swimming in lakes and rivers, the schools have huge fences and locked gates, people are warned not to share their bed with their babies but it is still acceptable to put children in forward facing car seats from a very young age.

I live in Sweden, here kids and adults swim in the lake, school groups swim in the lake, the schools are very open, no fences, their playgrounds are often the local park, new mums are encouraged to share their beds with their babies but the huge majority use rf car seats.

the child death rate due to accedents is lower in Sweden despite the lack of safty rules.

AIBU to think that the focus is on the wrong things?

honeytea, I dont know.

I was a member of a forum many years ago where I got such a flaming for posting pictures of a mountain trip I did with the kids, I left. This says a lot as I have a hard skin and dont let much rile me. But I was told I was not only out of my mind, but negligent and a danger to my own children, as they may have "rolled off " the rock face a couple of meters to our left.

My sons are fit and healthy, thank you very much. They jump down steep mountain sides with rolling rocks like they were mountain goats, whereas my husband have to hold my hand like I was a little old lady, getting down from 1200 meters.

I think many people in Britain are used to gyms (if they even exercise) cycling and walking on even surfaces, and swimming in pools, they are totally unable to manage in the "real" world or nature. They have grown up never having to assess any other risk than the ones associated with crossing a busy street. So when they try to access nature, they come into harm. Much like my sons risk, in busy London.

We have an expression "the farmers coming to town" as in showing no sense in a city environment, but I think you can reverse that for most brits. They are city dwelles coming in contact with nature and just dont know what to do.

Sorry about the link not working.

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I'm not sure I understand you question, neun

Everyone is free to have whatever carseat they wish, within the law. That is fine, choose whatever you want. I'm only correcting misinformation about rear facing seats -legs in the air, uncomfortable etc.

For the record I am partially deaf too and it isn't a problem. Daughter shouts if it's anything important. . . . like another bus, or a big green tractor

There are so many health and safety rules about everything in the uk, warnings about swimming in lakes and rivers

No, actually warnings about swimming in old quarries which are unsafe - you never know the depth and people die every year.

the schools have huge fences and locked gates

Please google 'Dunblane'.

There probably do not need to be so many gates and rules - but then in March 1996 I'm sure parents would have thought locked gates over protective.

sashh, totally right regarding school security.

I remember Dumblane well as at the time my ds2 was in reception class too.

op a fun man shot and killed/ injured every single child and teacher in a reception class gym lesson so I thank God that schools are far more secure today than they used to be.

sashh is also right re quarries and rivers. people did and do die swimming every year in these.

perhaps it's not so well publicised in Sweden.

give me safety conscious UK anyday.

Is any country more safety conscious than Sweden??

YANBU.

I was not aware of the danger of forward facing car seats when my DC were tiny. You can bet if I had been, I would have spent my last penny on a rear facing seat.

Regarding lakes, it depends on the lake. I let my DC swim in some lakes.

As the mother of a child who was a runner, I really like locked school gates.

My DC slept in my bed if it meant we were going to get some sleep.

Quintessential We have an expression "the farmers coming to town" as in showing no sense in a city environment, but I think you can reverse that for most brits. They are city dwellers coming in contact with nature and just dont know what to do

Agree with this. I just find men in particular here so wimpy. I've had tv aerial installers wax lyrical about how its "too dangerous" to install dishes on a bungalow roof, men saying they can't go out to do sport because its raining or windy, etc.. Its pathetic. A Dutch man would never admit to that, he would be embarrassed/ashamed.

Also I think part of it is from so many people living in new build identikit housing estates. The planning system here does not encourage self build or iniative, and living in such a sterile, controlled environment must do things to the psyche.

Its also not a good idea to not learn good motor skills when you are young, because it actually increases the risk of falling and hurting yourself, like my SIL who slipped on wet leaves when out walking and broke both her wrists.

Quintiessential - I find your response highly irritating. Perhaps you live in the south east where it is harder to find nature - and that's a great shame. But all over the uk there is amazing countryside and people making use of it.

We knew all about erf seats and tried to get one for DD. But none of them would fit in our 4-door 'family' car, even with the front seats forward because DH and I are both shortarses there is not enough room.

Our local schools here in Sweden are fenced in.

I really didn't want my point to be that everyone should rd their kids it was an example.

My main feeling was frustration with the huge amount of rules in the UK and the way things are reported, every death due to swimming is reported in tge summer and every death when skiing in the winter is reported but it is rare that road deaths are reported even though there are 5 a day. I understand the rules are partly to do with insurance.

I think people just need to learn how to do things sensibly, things like mushroom picking, swimming in open water, enjoying cold weather rather than being told no don't do it's too dangerous.

The way I see it ds will be in the car most days, I personally would like to have the safest car and safest carseat possible as I can See that often I have no control over the danger levels it is so dependant on the other drivers and wildlife we meet on the road.

It is odd to hear that Sweden is seen as health and safety obsessed, my experience has been that their car h+s is very strict but outdoor activities, schools and public spaces have nearly no signs, rules, safety gates/fences.

There must be different rules in different kommuns westie, non golf the schools that I have worked in in Stockholm had fences, some of them the kids just seemed to roam around the local parks and tge teacher's were not really sure where they were, made finding the right kid very hard!

I think you maybe only seeing what you want to see honeytea. It is against the law to have anything containing nuts on school property in Sweden. It is against the law to smoke within a certain distance of schools in Sweden (can't remember what that is though). My daughter got sent home from school because there were cat hairs on her jumper, which is a clear h+s risk .

You can't light fires in your garden in the summer in Sweden. When you can light fires there's a very small list of what you're allowed to burn. If you have a fireplace in you house, your chimney has to be inspected by the official chimney inspector every year.

You can't have a proper ice-cream van in Sweden because of h+s. It's an offence to makes cakes in your home kitchen and sell them because of h+s rules.

I could go on.

I'm sorry but to make out that Sweden is less h+s conscious than the UK is extremely blinkered.

There's a common joke in Sweden about how Swedes are not scared of meeting a lion when out in the jungle because they know that someone from the State will be on hand to make the situation safe. Or something like that.

Kinect neun my daughter is four and her legs aren't stuck in the air. Nothing impractical about it.

When I suggested rear facing was impractical for long journeys for my lot the above statement was your reply. So my question to you was what would you do with my 2 other children in the car, a saloon family car. There is no way you could fit 3 children in the car with their feet on either side rear facing so their legs would be up in the air if you can even get rear facing that would fit 3 children in the back of a saloon as it stands we need isofix to fit them and therefore rear facing would be impractical. I was actually trying to understand your point.

Sorry for the late reply. Been out all day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting 4 people on a motorbike is safe but there has to be a middle ground somewhere.

We have one of the safest road systems in the country and we should be grateful for that. But we also have one of the most overzealous health & safety/risk averse regimes I've seen. So we're tying our hands behind our backs when competing with other economies, especially emerging economies.

honeytea Road deaths are reported!

My dad works in road safety. In the region that he works (trying not to identify here) every single time there is a road death he gets an email about it with all the horrible details. His job is to work out why the death happened and what can be done to reduce road deaths.

Isn't there a problem with your perception of risk Honeytea? The only data I can find on Swedish deaths in cars suggests that the presumed advantage of keeping children rear-facing until four is that the death rate in cars for children aged 0-6 is close to zero. Which is excellent.But obviously carseats have no impact on the likelihood of a child dying in a an RTA if they are a pedestrian - and sadly in the UK those are the accidents which account for the largest number of child fatalities in RTAs.

21 children aged 0-15 did die in cars in 2011 (the only year I can find the figures easily accessibly for). But I can't find the figures for children aged 0-6 only so the comparisons with Sweden is impossible and obviously the UK population is 6 times the size of that of Sweden. See here.

Obviously there is evidence from carseat manufacturers that in experimental studies children are less likely to die in a rear-facing carseat. But the statistical data does not suggest rear-facing carseats are actually strongly protective over whole populations. The biggest dangers our children face are walking to school aged 11-12, chatting to their friends or playing on mobile devices and paying attention to the road.

NOT paying attention to the road that should be!

Yanbu. World is mad imo, yet I'm always called crazy because im wary about car travel and my dd. (exact reason why I don't drive or own a car).