AIBU or is my employer? Re: Flexible working

[busterboy]

Have name changed as I would be easy to identify based on previous posts.

I am currently on mat leave and asked my boss off the record if a flexible working request could be granted so that i could go back four days instead of full time.

I was told maybe if I drop a grade. This would be approx £6k paycut just for dropping grade then obviously an additional 20% cut for cutting down my hours.

I have quite a senior job but not director level.

I feel like this is a bit dodgy as it's mainly women who want the flexible requests so its a bit sexist.

I am not usually one for causing trouble at work but I would really like to get this request granted on my current level.

AIBU or are they....

OP, I'm glad you have decided not to drop grade.

I was made redundant and have been self employed until recently. For us, we looked at practicalities. Not only that, financially, it makes more sense for the higher earner (me) to work more hours. Some men and women have had a very old fashioned attitude to the news that me male partner will work term time. We cannot find holiday care for our 6 yo. I'm lucky my DH is my partner and he is lucky that I appreciate how much hard work he is letting himself in for.

I understand that employing two people part time is more expensive in terms of on costs. It is better for the economy to spread the wealth. Our also gives a business more flexibility in terms of its work force. I work flexible hours and from home. My boss expects and gets flexibility from me. If my boss expected me to work 9 to 5, I would stop checking emails and working at night and weekends.

I returned to the thread hoping that someone would have come back with a cunning (magic) plan for returning on part time hours at same grade. Damn I will have to go back FT too!

I work for a PLC that was voted "most family friendly company to work" several years running..... However if you get to a good grade part time is flat refused.

I am still trying to find the solution too!

my current thinking is go back full time use my holidays carefully for the first six months. see how ttc goes and try for a flexible request if I am not pg. I might be able to prove I can do the job pt by showing how few five day weeks I worked when using the annual leave.

"Thank you so much catgirl for listing the reasons employers have to give for refusing flexible working hours. My department couldn't say any of those to me and so I can push forward with my promotion."

Careful iwantanafternoonnap . That procedure and those reasons are what applies to flexible working requests made in respect of an employee's current job. No employee has the right to make a flexible working request for a hypothetical job they haven't been offered yet.

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but your mention of pushing a promotion just prompted me to clarify that. If a more senior role is being advertised as full time, although you can of course ask whether they'd consider part time, you can't insist they use the flexible working procedure and justify a refusal in the same way if they prefer not to consider applicants who only want to work part time.

Buster, you should accompany any request for flexible working with a business case demonstrating how you would fit your role into your proposed working pattern. Use the list of reasons for refusal as your basis, and give them solutions to all of them to show how the business will not suffer.

that's a good plan gubbins. it will give me a structure for my business case.

Buster boy, I would call their bluff.

Make a formal request for pt at your current position. if they refuse, citing business reasons and offering you the lower grade as an alternative, ask them to give you the job description of your existing role and of the proposed lower grade role, "so you can consider the differences between the two jobs that make one possible part time and not the other, and see if I can come up with a way to mitigate the effects of pt working on my existing job".

When I went back to work, I had taken a long career break, so agreed to go back one grade below my previous job (nearly 8 years previously). I went back pt as well. Within a year they had promoted me back to my original grade. Being pt was never the issue and indeed there are pt partners where I used to work.

So I don't think it is normal to have a blanket ban on pt senior people. Especially now with the paperless office and good communications that we all have for emergencies.

thanks beast. I want to have another dc so can't see me getting promoted again soon if I took the drop and went on mat leave again!

I have been looking at a calendar and due to bank hops I can probably get through at least the first three months using a few days holiday and not working a full week. then I can take a couple of weeks of and a few more odd days to get through the next few months. could work out fine and I will get the full wage.

if I get to six months without getting pg I will use the advice on this thread to do a flexible working request.

They can't make a lower grade job as a condition for flexible working, what your boss is suggesting is illegal.
The head of my section has 2 dc & she is in a very senior role (£50k+) and job shares 3 days a week. I would seek legal advice from ACAS and I have found my HR team useless. Half of them aren't upto date with current employment law & the other half actually suggest the illegal ideas that your boss put forward! So it is best to seek independent advice & find out what your rights are first before having another conversation with your boss.

I would put it in writing, think they have to respond in writing. If they won't budge I would take my previous role FT (no way take a pay cut!), use a/l to reduce working days as you suggest (if they'd approve this, some employers won't and insist you use most of the accrued a/l up before returning to work) and apply again for flexible working in six months time.

Btw some employers don't know about the accrued leave, my manager hit the roof when she found out!

To the teachers with heads giving promotion / additional paid responsibilities / development that helps prepare for promotion to full-timers, could you challenge this through the grievance procedure? it's indirect (or direct if thosse promoted are all men!) sex discrimination and bad for the school's performance as it reduces the pool of talent.

I think thats my best way forward loopy. I wasn't allowed to carry this years holidays forward and had to use them before mat leave. there are no rules at my work for taking your current years holidays before you return to work. I will have a full yeArs hols to take in six months.

I am planning to sneakily take the holidays to create a part time job without my boss realising what I am doing! there are a few bank holidays coming up when I return so that's four day week that everyone gets. I am going to ask if I can do four days for the first few weeks which hopefully they will say yes.

I am going to ask for Friday off before the bank hols which is a normal thing that everyone does.

I will book a couple of 'summer holidays' which span two weeks. again this is normal and everyone has a summer holiday.

this should cover most weeks in my first six months. then I just need to book a few random days off and I will be actually working very few five day weeks.

asking to use my holidays for every Friday off wouldn't get me very far but this strategy should work. I am only booking holidays as everyone else does.

I think moaning a lot about working full time will add to the effect!

I will make sure I book weeks off at quiet times so will not be missed. tbh I always did that anyway.

If they want you to do the same job but just on a lower grade because you'd be part time, then obviously they are BVU and I should think you would have a good case against them if you chose to pursue it.

If they don't think your current job can be done PT, they may or may not have a point. Some people have said that all office jobs can be done in PT hours. This might be true, but that doesn't mean that there isn't sometimes a detrimental impact on the business and/or other staff.

I have granted flexible working requests to a number of staff. It was always a no-brainer to me that the organisation should support good people to balance their work with their other commitments, and perhaps I didn't think it through properly in the case of one particular role. I now really regret the fact that I agreed to their request because it means that loads of shit comes my way on the days when they don't work. There's nothing I can do about it now, but I would certainly consider the potential impact more carefully for any future requests for flexible working.

I think you need to think longer term.

This strategy works fine to get you a sneaky advantage over your employer in the short term. If you get pg again, of course you get mat leave and the lawa says you can come back to your previous job afterwards.

What about after that? I think you have to recognise that your employer will feel manipulated and will not trust you. You will not get promotion in that company any time soon, not a very good reference.

I actually explained the whole thing to my employer, said I wanted to get pg again soon, had an agreed career break and then, when I wanted to come back, nobody was sulking with me, it was open arms and promotion all the way.

What do you want after Dc 2. Are you happy to burn your bridges with this company, including reference? If so, fine. If not, you could be honest with them, agree a project to do while you are TTC and comeback after Dc2 properly, with their blessing and support.

I know which I would choose. Losing a bit of money now is an invest,net in your long term career, if you want one there. If you don't, it's not a problem to do what you have in mind.

I wouldn't tell them about ttc as I spent two years trying for dc1. I couldnt have anyone waiting for me to produce the goods!

do you think my work will feel manipulated my me going on mat leave again soon after returning or that I used my holidays in the way I am planning.

loads of people come back pg after mat leave at my work. there are people I know who have had three and four mat leaves in a short space of time.

I am not really manipulating them with my holidays just using them in a way that suits me. and no different to what everyone else does. it will just be using a lot of holidays in a short space of time. tbh I think its silly to accrue holidays when on mat leave but you have to hate the game not the player.

I cant take a career break as I need to earn money after mat leave.

I see my options as try for the flexible request officially and cause a stink now or wait and see how ttc goes whilst working full time and either go on mat leave or cause a fuss with flex working request in six months.

after 2nd mat leave I would probably take the demotion if I have to as I will want part time work. will do all I can to remain on the same grade though using the advice on here.

I don't know your employer, so sorry in advance if some of this makes no sense at your end... I think you can plan to avoid the demotion after coming back second time. I only took demotion myself as I was away for so long, and i was doing a professional services job where the rules changed so often, I needed to relearn it all.

I got the sense you were definitely thinking of getting pg within six months, so you would be back for six months essentially pt and then go again. It sounds as if this happens a lot in your job, maybe that's why your employer is a bit cynical and is trying it on wrt the demotion. S/he may be expecting you to have a second DC if everyone else does, which is why s/he is not really willing to put herself out to support you, if you are going to be off again soon. Nt saying this is how life ought to be, but sounds as if it is how it just is, for now, where you work.

W have a lot of people taking a few years to complete their families and do some pt work, then they come back ft later on. W would never demote someone, but I can think of some very successful deals where we gave someone a role that could survive a second period of mat leave. W didn't ask, they didn't tell, but nobody was surprised when it happened. I work at a Uni and we are keen to keep good women for the medium term, so we think five years or longer ahead in these things.

Can you talk to your employer and say that you are committed to the firm in the medium term, so you would like a meeting to talk about medium term career plans as you return to work? You don't have to discuss pt at that meeting, except to say thanks for the offer but you are not interested in the demotion. But it sends a strong signal that you are thinking about them long term and you are willing to work with them on this.

Heads get round teacher requests a number of ways. 1 - no shared tutor groups, 2 - not enough staff to cover all form groups plus other duties, 3 - compulsory attendance at a number of after school events which will be listed in the school handbook, 4 - attendance on inset days/evenings, 5 - hoys and hods need to be available to deal with department/parents/Other issues at a moments notice and finally the big one 6 timetable issues.

Timetable problems and form tutor needs is how our HT has got rid of the majority of part timers. He has said yes to people to reduce down to the equivalent of four days but they then find the teaching time spread over five days and their free time maybe in the middle of the day! It is all down to rooming etc. so he looks like a good guy but ...

Must be easier in an office job

i am going to try and get pg once i am back at work as it took so long to get my first baby i need to get a move on - not getting any younger!!

i will just try my plan of using holidays and see how it goes. i can look to the future once i return to work permanently.

most teachers i know cant do part time they seem to think they would just have to do the same amount of work with less pay.

I think you will be doing them a favour using your holiday like that as they don't need to cover your holiday in the way they would if you took a two week holiday. And as you say, once they can see that it works, there will find it hard to reject a request to formalise it.

I left teaching for this very reason. Senior job - no option of going part time whatsoever. Applied and was turned down.

Most primary teachers are female.
There is a shortage of primary senior leaders and especially HTs.
An ambitious teacher might start applying for promoted posts after 6 -8 years of teaching.
What a surprise, for most female teachers 6-8 years brings them to their prime reproductive years of their late twenties or early thirties.
If schools are actively applying policies that no promotion is possible for pt teachers then I feel this is out and out gender discrimination.
No wonder men are over-represented in the primary headship workforce....

Excuse the note form - writing in haste.

Branching out - I think I might have a little chat with my union re. Part time enhanced teaching posts....

You could give your boss a list of dates you intend to take as hols over the next three months, that would get rid of any deception factor

Re suggestions to ask HR for advice. Just remember that HR are appointed to look after the employer's interests, not yours, and their responses to any queries will reflect this.

(posted too soon). Unions and ACAS may be better sources of legal advice. For what works in your company, try asking other female colleagues about their experiences. You may be able to refer to them as precedents.

breathe the funny thing is they don't cover me when I am on holiday. I just take holidays at quiet times and do the work when I get back. I will be taking a few weeks off for a proper holiday I will have seven weeks holiday to take in the first six months back so may have to carry some forward to the next year.

I agree they hr are not on our side. we need to use acas or a union to help us.