What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

sam FWIW you have totally lost any possible sympathy from me by mentioning getting brownie points for yourself.

I mean WTAF?!!? Did you actually genuinely just say that you permanently modified another sentient autonomous human beings body in order to make you own place in heaven more secure?

Oh how hilair.

I suggest you all google circumcision and go to images, and spend a few minutes looking at all the horrific pictures of babies and young children (boys and girls) being forcibly held or strapped down and cut, and see the abject terror, shock, distress and searing pain in their little faces.

Of course those of you who disagree with the practice will look, and cry a bit, and feel traumatised by it, and those of you who will do it regardless because of cultural or religious expectation will not look, because they'd rather not be reminded of the awful truth of what they have inflicted on their children. They can't face it. Shame.

Routine circumcision with no medical need is one of those things like fox hunting for me - I have discussed it with some extremely intelligent and (usually) well balanced people but I have never, ever heard an argument for it that stacks up and justifies the awfulness of the act.

nope she said it won't gain her any brownie points in heaven (which is true because, um, heaven doesn't exist). although if you believe in heaven, and you don't need to be circumcised to go there, then that seems like a good reason not to circumcise. ha, see what happens when you try to apply logic to this rubbish.

I feel sick.

A Jewish man can have great difficulty with his cultural and religious heritage if he is not circumcised, for a start no Jewish woman would want to marry them. Very few Jewish men would thank their mother for not getting them circumcised. In liberal circles it can be ok not to circumcise but it is generally a given. Cultural and religious reasons are not unimportant. Oh and babies today are anesthetised and feel very little pain.

ICBINEG - there's an obligation on the parents to have a brit for their son at around 8 days.Accordingly, we were fulfilling our religious obligations by doing so. This seems a fairly uncontroversial interpretation of the religion. If we didn't have any religious obligation, and were just doing it for fun, that would be a much more serious matter, in my view....

mrsR I read it as, 'NOT circumcising will NOT earn me or him any brownie points"

the implication being that there are points to be earned for both of them by doing it.

I can understand an adult male making the decision being rewarded by god for his effort....

I don't understand why god would reward a baby who had no say in the matter for the actions of his parents....

what sort of a god rewards taking choice away from someone more than allowing someone coming to know him independently?

the whole notion of 'religious obligation' is so insane in this scenario. ah yes, well NORMALLY i wouldn't mutilate my newborn, but you see, god wants me to. so that's ok, phew. perhaps this explains why am i only jewish by race and not by religion.

icbineg, oh god (ha) i re-read it, you're right

i nearly married a circumcised jewish man. we discussed the fact that i would not countenance circumcising if we had a son. he was fine with it. i think lots of my jewish male friends would be fine with it if there was a trend towards rejecting it as a practice.

sam the more you say the more it sounds like you inflicted a mutilation on your own child for the benefit of yourself.

All I can say is that if god does exist and genuinely prefers the company of people who blindly follow 1000's of year old traditions over people capable of respecting a child's autonomy over his own body and religious and cultural mindset then I for one am glad I will not be there for eternity.

I puked my guts up for 8 months of pregnancy - I wouldn't want to do it for another week...let alone eternity.

Appletarts, a Victorian gentleman would face great cultural resistance if he allowed his wife and/or daughters to take up a profession. Does that mean it was right for him to do so? As society progresses one can only hope that ridiculous practices based on superstition or worse still, cultural pressure will cease to exist.

mrsR I am glad but unsurprised to hear it is on the way out. Like I said, noone will be having this conversation in 100 years time....except in a wtf did they think they were doing back then sort of way....

Icbineg I think what you know about Judaism and Jewish culture you could write on the back of a matchbox. This is ignorance talking here and your thinking is very universal, it's western white christian way or no way. Sam I'm with you.

And of course if you do believe in god you've got to wonder why he would create half the species with an extra bit he expected you to remove at a few days old.

Umm Mary this has been custom since biblical times....not on its way out anytime soon. Victorian references ha ha ha.

mary we could make a list of things that have previously been totally socially acceptable to do to children and that at some point people were considered looney liberal to speak up against!

Ill open with:

1. make them work for their food in the workhouses
2. cane them for not memorizing latin accurately

you don't need to know anything about jewish culture to know that mutilation of a baby for no medical reason is wrong.

me? Christian? I have rarely been so insulted.

White I will have to own...but I have no choice over that...

Fellatio, why don't you also go and google pictures of abortions being performed with coat hangers. Then you can exhort people to join the 'prolife' movement. How's that?

I love a good circumcision thread. :)

Again Icbineg, nothing alike. Oh dear no historians here today then. This is social change you are describing not religious practices.

1. Put laudanum in their milk to stop them crying

apple draw a graph for me would you?

What % of jewish boys were circumcised 1000 years ago?

What % of jewish boys were circumcised 10 years ago?

What % of jewish boys were circumcised last year?

Connect up the dots however you like and tell me roughly when the line hits zero % in the future....

It can be argued that there is a real need for abortion. I don't think the same can ever be said of ritual circumcision.