What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

BookFairy Why would you say that it affects men DTD?

I have been impregnated 4 times with no problems.

My DH and I share a happy and fullfilled sex life

Since circumcised men are less likely to contract venerial disease and HIV, and their female partners are less likely to have cervical cancer, I would definitely have my son done. That is, if I chose to have children.

Well looking at it from that viewpoint, it's hard to argue against cutting a baby boy's cock off altogether.

He certainly won't catch an STI then or be interfering with anyone's cervix.

Win, win.

ShellyBoobs Seeing as it reduces risk of cervical cancer weighed up against increased risk of breast cancer in Jewish women , I'd say it's a win/lose situation.

As for making all future generations eunuchs, surely you can see that's a step too far.

yes, i'm aware it is not primarily for hygiene reasons, but my mother, i would imagine in common with many other jews, justified it to herself, at least partly, on the basis that she was certain that having a foreskin would lead to all sorts of vile problems. the point is that i understand why cultural/religious traditions are very strong, but that doesn't necessarily make them right.

"curlew I know of no Jewish man who is unhappy with the "procedure".

Why did all male members of my extended family willingly participate in my DS's bris if they had been so scarred themselves?"

Because they are all equally brainwashed.

Oh, and I don't think I said anything about them being scarred, did I?

and there are plenty of jews who don't actually keep kosher, and who don't always observe shabbos but still consider themselves jewish.... it would be nice to think that circumcision could become one of those things.

The supposed health benefits are minimal. And can be reproduced by adequate hygiene, condom use, HPV vaccine take up and health education.

Apart from balanitis. Which can be treated if it occurs.

My DP is going for a circumcision in two weeks at the ripe old age of 30. He has a very very tight foreskin which never retracted as it normally should when he was growing. His DM and DF basically ignored it. fury at them for another day.

It causes us problems.

I finally convinced him to see a dr when I accidentally hurt him again during sex. He was referred, consultant, specialist, pre OP and OP within 4 weeks. Either the urology department in our local NHS trust are bored or it's actually classed as serious.

It's a general anaesthetic procedure. HOW can it be general anaesthetic for an adult but baby boys have NOTHING save a drop of wine at a bris?

I'll find out for you if it changes his sensitivity in two weeks (plus the 4 weeks recovery time )

curlew No you didn't say anything about them being scarred, I said that they weren't!

How very respectful of a religion (of which i presume you know next to nothing about), to infere that those who practice are (in your words) "brainwashed".

curlew I stand corrected, you didn't infere, you stated brainwash. (nice)

mrsravelstein I don't keep a kosher kitchen, we attend temple 4/5 times a year, we try to respect Shabbat etc but often other social engagements get in the way.

We're Jewish in the sense that there's history and tradition and DNA.

No mother wants to put their newborn through this.

It's primarily the men who push for a bris, go figure.

You were admirable to go against family and refuse to do it.

RibenaFiend Good luck to your DP.

so you're doing it purely because of your religion and because all of your ancestors for centuries have done it, because it is 'normal' in your community. isn't that pretty much exactly what 'brainwashed' means? that you're conditioned to think that something abnormal is actually normal?

i consider myself jewish (i'm sat here eating my mum's boiled gefilte fish out of tupperware as i type, seriously) but it wasn't difficult to go against it because it was so completely abhorrent to me to hurt my child.

mrsravelstein It's called "faith" not "brainwashing".

Do you have a real faith? Do you believe that God will welcome you into his house after death? Do you feel His presence everyday? Do you worship Him and pray to him? Do you abide by His laws? Do you thank him for the myriad of daily joys you encounter?

NO

You will never get it.

If it has to be done, with anaesthetic surely? That video was horrible, it looked like torture

(enjoy your fish!)

no i don't have any faith at all. and i can't understand wanting to have faith in a god who wants you to do that to your child.

mrsravelstein Then we must agree to disagree.

Faith is a powerful thing. It affects our every move. It makes me appreciate simple things. It binds our small community.

I believe in God, i try to abide by his laws and dictates. It comforts me.

I have chosen to opt out of certain conventions.

We are not kosher for example.

Holding a brit is a sensitive thing for a mother, for all mothers.

You stood your ground and all credit to you. I could not have been so strong.

Family pressure was phenominal throughout pregnancy with DS 1 , i gave in and therefore set a precident.

Would i cave in now? Probably.

Mrs R - it's sounds as if your brother has issues with your mum far beyond the brit.

I'm interested - when you say you consider yourself Jewish, do you think your children will consider themselves Jewish? Do they know any Hebrew? Are they members of a shul? Do they keep any of the festivals? You're perfectly entitled to give up the religion, of course, or even take up another, but waht you've said so far doesn't strengthen your case that people can be practising Jews without a brit.

Regarding the advantages of circumcising in infancy rather than later:
www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2431/12/20
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477513109000114

Medical benefits of circumcising esp for neonates
theconversation.com/male-circumcision-policy-ignores-research-showing-benefits-8395
www.circs.org/index.php/Library/Wiswell4
www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-case-for-neonatal-circumcision/

So, the way I see it, there's an opportunity as a newborn to do the procedure which disappears later when it becomes more complicated and risky. There are real health benefits. Of course, no one is suggesting that uncircumcised men are all dropping dead from their festering penises, but the fact remains that there would be fewer infant UTIs, fewer deaths from penile cancer, fewer of the foreskin issues which emerge later, fewer cervical cancer deaths, fewer HIV deaths. But I also accept that on its own, maybe the medical benefits wouldn't be reason enough to circumcise, especially outside of some parts of Africa where there's a generalized HIV epidemic (in the west, very little HIV is in the general population).

However, put together medical benefits, a very straight forward procedure for a newborn and circumcision as a strong cultural preference, then would probably decide to circumcise, if I had a son, IN THE BEST INTEREST OF MY SON.

You may not agree, that's fine. We all parent differently. I breastfed my children until they were both older than 2.5, one of them was 4 when she stopped. Other mothers don't, often because culturally it's not accepted. Fine, I don't think it's in YOUR children's best interest to stop before they are two. I wouldn't call you barbaric or brainwashed for doing so.

People here need to tone down the hysteria and the hyperbole - child abuse, mutilation, barbarism, evil etc etc. Puh-leez. Just because you might not choose to do it, doesn't mean you're necessarily right.

Sam - when I say amazed, it doesn't mean I have learnt something. I have known this for quite some time. Perhaps disgusted would be a better description as I wouldn't want to be part of a group that insisted on me harming my infant.

I also don't get the Jewish people who aren't very observant but choose to do this. Of all of the bits of a religion to follow, this is surely the obvious part to omit. Or is eating a cheeseburger that important to you that you can't be bothered to keep kosher but mutilating your son is ok? Why don't people believe either in the whole lot and fulfil all of their religious obligations or not believe and drop at the very least the one that should not be their decision to make?

It's not mutilating your son.

Can you please stop using such loaded terms as it's becoming extremely offensive and, to be honest, I'm quite sick of it.

I'm a non-religious Jewish person who would circumcise. I've explained my reasons above but if you are going to use terms like 'mutilate' then you're not really interested why, you just want to offend.

You can read the links above to see the very real medical benefits of circumcising.

Being Jewish involves belonging to a culture, not just a religion. Circumcsion is a strong cultural identifier.

Since there are medical benefits to circumcision and since circumcising as a newborn provides an opportunity to do it with the least complications and only a local anaesthetic and since there are cultural benefits to doing it, even if I don't believe in the religious aspect, I would circumcise.

I would not circumcise my son if I felt that the medical risk outweighed the benefit, regardless of cultural benefits. In such a case, we'd deal with losing out culturally. However, that is not the case. We cannot wait until he is old enough to decide since he cannot go back to being a newborn and having a much more straightforward and safer procedure.

OK?