to not be able to stop thinking about this disgusting status?

[vinisque]

A friend on Facebook (now deleted) wrote an unbelieveably offensive status yesterday evening. All my friends on Facebook are real friends who I believe are decent people so I was shocked and enraged at this.

"Fucking slag at co-op wouldn't serve me because I didn't have id... I hope she saves up all summer for a holiday with the girls and gets the shit raped out of her by the locals. Bitch."

It made me so angry I felt sick. I commented on the status saying "what a disgusting thing to wish on someone". Then I immediately deleted him. I'm annoyed at myself for deleting him because I can't see a reply or see if the status has been deleted. To be honest I feel like he's gotten away with it and I should have told him what a complete piece of shit he is. I can't stop thinking about it, what should I do?

Not everybody in porn is being raped or havent agreed to it though!i have also heard of people both men and women being turned on by rape ( def not one for me!) but it cant all being put in same bracket. Thankfully iv never come accross any of these sites! We shouldnt get rid of all porn just because of this. If man or woman wants to watch it iv got no prob aslong as its not with animals or kids. I personally wouldnt like any type of rape or violent porn either

Not all women in porn are raped - but some are, and they just blend in with the 1000s of other videos. This girl looks reticent for some reason and it's boring? Just click on another thumbnail. Porn enables the abuse of women and children, and sometimes men.

Minifingers

Flat pack - you sound angry and defensive.

By your reasoning child porn would be ok, as long as children weren't used in the making of it (such as in Hentai) Because watching people having sex with children won't desensitise us as a society to this sort of exploitation or encourage people to want to act out their fantasies?

And maybe you can watch women being brutalised and forget about it because you've become desensitised to it, as have many people who use porn.

Remarkable. I ask for some actual evidence of your stance, and you accuse me of being a rapey child molester. I don't think any more evidence is needed of the intellectual vacuity of your position.

Pornographic material is not just a bit of harmless fun. By portraying women as dehumanised sex objects they fuel attitudes that underpin discrimination and violence against women.
Pornographic material sends the deeply harmful message that treating women like sex objects is normal and acceptable.

Just sayin...

Fallout1977

Pornographic material is not just a bit of harmless fun. By portraying women as dehumanised sex objects they fuel attitudes that underpin discrimination and violence against women.
Pornographic material sends the deeply harmful message that treating women like sex objects is normal and acceptable.

Just sayin...

Repeating that ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

I'm curious, flatpack. Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

If so, do you have evidence for that?

Or have I misunderstood your position on the subject?

No dont think any of us are saying violence against women is wrong but putting everything in one bracket is wrong. Not all women in porn are being absused or raped. Not all blokes who watch porn are beating their partners or think vioence against women is wrong.
That will be the next thing banned. We will be a right nanny state that

You misunderstand me, kali110.

I was asking, specifically, if flatpackhamster was actually saying that pornography which depicts violence towards women is not harmful in affecting attitudes towards women.

I did not say that all pornography depicted rape or violent acts perpetrated against women.

Personally, I don't like or watch porn. Personally, again, I believe it to be harmful as it normalises the objectification of women. But these are my own beliefs. I do not have evidence to back up these views and I impose them on no one (beyond airing them here).

I was just interested to see if flatpack has evidence that pornography, specifically violent pornography, does no harm as this sentence:- "Repeating that ad nauseam doesn't make it true". seemed to imply that was the case.

SoniaGluck

I'm curious, flatpack. Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

I'm saying there's no evidence either way and waving the ban-hammer around is illiberal and wrong. There are a group of people claiming (based upon no actual evidence or research) that violent porn harms women.

If so, do you have evidence for that?

Do I have evidence for no harm? How would that possibly work? How could I obtain proof that something didn't do something? This sounds to me rather like the Green party's stance on fracking - "It might be bad, so let's not do it."

Or have I misunderstood your position on the subject?

I think you're doing your best. Particularly since you, at no point, used the word 'violent' in your previous post.

There is no evidence that porn increases violence towards women or harm towards women. There may be individuals who've viewed porn and are violent, but that doesn't mean it's the porn.
If it were, we could look at countries where porn has been more mainstream for decades (such as Germany, Denmark, France and Italy) and we would see very clear evidence of casual violence towards women being part of the culture.

kali110 - this has turned into a debate about pornography (which is fair enough, we need to keep debating that), but in your first post you said some people were born 'nasty'. Really? Any idea how we can identify these evil babies? Maybe phrenology's due a comeback . . .

Particularly since you, at no point, used the word 'violent' in your previous post. I did, actually: - Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

However, I accept that I was pushing it to expect evidence of no harm.

As I said in my response to kali I don't have evidence of my own, so I can't pursue it any further with any authority.

Having seen in the past 2 or 3 weeks plenty of evidence of violent, misogynistic language directed at certain women online, I do wonder a little at the possible desensitising effects that porn has on certain individuals.

Of course, these men could have been complete wankers before watching the porn but I believe ( and I accept that I believe it on no scientific evidence) that watching porn normalises unpleasant attitudes towards women. I don't think it's so very far from turning unpleasant attitudes in to unpleasant actions should the opportunity present itself.

SoniaGluck Sat 03-Aug-13 15:22:23

Particularly since you, at no point, used the word 'violent' in your previous post. I did, actually: - Are you actually saying that pornography depicting violence towards women does no harm?

Sorry, I thought you were the poster I replied to so I was referring to the post above.

As I said in my response to kali I don't have evidence of my own, so I can't pursue it any further with any authority.

There isn't any peer-reviewed research either.

Having seen in the past 2 or 3 weeks plenty of evidence of violent, misogynistic language directed at certain women online, I do wonder a little at the possible desensitising effects that porn has on certain individuals.

But you don't know that those people have viewed porn. Further, it's my experience (since I've been on the intertubes since before they were called that) that idjits are always online, and they'll say stuff online that they wouldn't dare say to someone's face, and they don't care what they say or who they say it to. Male, female, gay, ginger, disabled - they'll pick on whatever they can to get a rise. And that's exactly what they got when they started yomping on about rape to women who were campaigning against porn. If you doubt me, go take a gander at somethingawful.com or 4chan.

Of course, these men could have been complete wankers before watching the porn but I believe ( and I accept that I believe it on no scientific evidence) that watching porn normalises unpleasant attitudes towards women. I don't think it's so very far from turning unpleasant attitudes in to unpleasant actions should the opportunity present itself.

Mmm, but you're building assumption upon assumption there. And if we're going to start banning stuff - which is what's being proposed - I would want there to be solid scientific evidence before we did it.

But you don't know that those people have viewed porn. True, but if some of this disgusting stuff came out of their own heads that's arguably worse.

I take your point about my assumptions, I am making them. It seems reasonable enough (to me) to do so, since watching porn is quite a common thing for certain young men ( and the men threatening rape and worse online have been predominantly in their 20s, apparently). Moreover, they boast about doing so.

I also take your point about the threats being 'hot air' in most cases. I think that there is probably a disconnect when some of these guys tweet their vileness - they don't visualise a real live woman reading it. But, for others, it is backed by such hatred that I'm not so sure they wouldn't act on their threats if they could.

At this stage I don't think that there is a good enough argument for an out and out ban on porn. I don't like it but that isn't a good reason to ban it, unfortunately.

The last couple of weeks have been very sobering and dispiriting. I feel a bit ground down by it all, to be honest.

This is exactly why I don't use fb any more,I would rather not know what my so called friends are thinking every nano second. I want to be oblivious to that sorry of appalling crap.

Urgh OP, glad you deleted !

SoniaGluck

True, but if some of this disgusting stuff came out of their own heads that's arguably worse.

I take your point about my assumptions, I am making them. It seems reasonable enough (to me) to do so, since watching porn is quite a common thing for certain young men ( and the men threatening rape and worse online have been predominantly in their 20s, apparently). Moreover, they boast about doing so.

The last stats I saw, 2/3 of men and 1/2 of women between 18 and 25 had viewed porn online (by choice rather than just stumbling across it). Can't remember what the stats said about regular consumers of it but I think the proportion is the same - that for every 3 men consuming porn, there are 2 women..

I also take your point about the threats being 'hot air' in most cases. I think that there is probably a disconnect when some of these guys tweet their vileness - they don't visualise a real live woman reading it. But, for others, it is backed by such hatred that I'm not so sure they wouldn't act on their threats if they could.

Did you see [[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10209643/Internet-troll-who-abused-Mary-Beard-apologises-after-threat-to-tell-his-mother.html
this story?]]

This guy apologised after someone threatened to send his twitter information to his mum. That's the kind of people we're dealing with here. Not raging hate zombies, but people living at home with their mum who think they're funny when they push boundaries. Take a look at the two sites I mentioned in my last post - there are tens of thousands of them on there. Often they're social misfits (nerds/geeks) which makes them angry at the world. But stick them in a room with real people, or more usefully indicate that there isn't such a clear separation between the world of the internet and the real one, and their bullying dissipates.

At this stage I don't think that there is a good enough argument for an out and out ban on porn. I don't like it but that isn't a good reason to ban it, unfortunately. smile

I have much the same attitude to an awful lot of stuff. There's plenty of things I loathe and despise (such as the Guardian) but I recognise that other people like it and it'd be illiberal of me to wield the banhammer even if I could.

The last couple of weeks have been very sobering and dispiriting. I feel a bit ground down by it all, to be honest.

Don't be. It's been going on for years, and until someone finds a way of dispensing a well-earned slap down a fibreoptic cable, it's not going to go away. But while it might seem ghastly it's a consequence of the freedom that the internet brings. The internet was built, essentially, on altruism. There are tens of thousands of forums where people ask advice on everything, and other people dispense advice for free.

For every person on the internet writing "RAEP RAEP HURRR" there are twenty doing good things. Want to know how to lay a tile floor? Want to know why your computer keeps coming up with those error messages? What about how many species of bee can be found in your area? Someone's writing about it, and will help you out, for free and because they want to. The internet is an extraordinary place in every sense.

I don't dispute that lots of women choose to watch porn. I wonder what sort of porn they're watching, though. I mean there is porn and porn, IYSWIM.

Yes, I saw that story. I don't think that all the rape tweeters as totally gormless as he was, though. Some of them come across as quite a different type altogether. But it's a fair point that a lot of them are armchair misogynists, so to speak.

I love The Guardian ( but you knew that) . And, as for: until someone finds a way of dispensing a well-earned slap down a fibreoptic cable, I can only agree - I dare say, though, that you and I might disagree on who deserves the slap.

You're quite right about the value of the internet, of course, and normally, I wouldn't be saying such defeatist things. Just had an overload of idiocy recently.

I do appreciate your taking the time to discuss these matters, BTW. I don't think that you and I will ever agree on certain subjects but at least we can have a reasonable discussion.

Op what a vile 'friend' who you're better off without. On the plus side, you've started what's turned into a really interesting thread. Particularly enjoying the debate between flat packed and Sonia- articulate arguments from both of you and really making me think about my own stance

Urggh I hate people like this. Recently had to delete someone for typing 'all women who wear flat shoes should have their feet chopped off.' Disgusting.

Interesting discussion re porn use and increased online abuse of women though, has really made me think.

I don't think that just because men in their twenties are more likely to watch porn they are then more likely to want to degrade women. Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. There must be more variables.

Maybe these people have never been in a serious relationship with a member of the opposite sex (being mostly in their twenties), therefore don't really understand women they are sexually attracted to. Most hate seems to stem from fear of the unknown. That and the fact they are massive dicks!

Thanks PlateSpinning It's good to air these things. I've actually been working out my own views and changing my mind a bit as I've been reading and responding.

I don't think that just because men in their twenties are more likely to watch porn they are then more likely to want to degrade women. Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. There must be more variables.

I totally agree on the variables, IDontBowl. I mean, I have a 25 year old son and I'm pretty sure that he has watched porn. I hope nothing too extreme but he's an adult and it isn't something that he would talk to me about. I can be pretty much 100% certain that he has never sent a rape or murder threat to an unknown woman over the internet because he didn't like something she did or said.

I think you could be right about the fear of the unknown in some cases; although at least one of the guys arrested over the recent Twitter threats was apparently in a relationship.

That and the fact they are massive dicks! Can't argue with that, however.

Of course we cant identify who's going to grow up into a vile human being .i just meant that some people can have the best upbringing and still turn into a twisted human being even without variables such as porn. I do think there should be some checks on the websites that were mentioned though.

flatpackhamster - "Who nowadays denies a woman's right to a job? How many claim a woman is only fit to run a household? Who states that a woman's isn't capable of holding any job she chooses?"

2 years ago, roughly, I was turned down for a job I was qualified for and experienced in, in favour of a man with no relevant qualifications or experience. I was told it was because you needed to be a man to do this job. Sexism is still going on, you are very fortunate if it's not happening to you, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

SoniaGluck

I don't dispute that lots of women choose to watch porn. I wonder what sort of porn they're watching, though. I mean there is porn and porn, IYSWIM.

I don't know for certain. I get the vague impression that it's less redtube and more chatroulette but that isn't based on any concrete evidence. Porn aimed at men has certainly changed though in the last couple of years and I wonder if it's because more couples are watching it together.

I love The Guardian ( but you knew that) smile. And, as for: until someone finds a way of dispensing a well-earned slap down a fibreoptic cable, I can only agree - I dare say, though, that you and I might disagree on who deserves the slap.

I'll offer you a deal. You can slap whoever you like if I can send Seumas Milne back in time to 1950s Soviet Russia and give him a taste of the Stalinist hell he thinks is so fucking awesome. Public school Oxbridge communists boil my piss.

You're quite right about the value of the internet, of course, and normally, I wouldn't be saying such defeatist things. Just had an overload of idiocy recently.

Time to unplug then. I find that 48 hours of not reading the news or discussion forums makes me feel a whole lot better. I set fire to some animal on the barbecue and drank a bottle of wine, and that helped no end.

I do appreciate your taking the time to discuss these matters, BTW. I don't think that you and I will ever agree on certain subjects but at least we can have a reasonable discussion.

Likewise. But don't imagine I'm mellowing in my old age. :)

MikeOxard

2 years ago, roughly, I was turned down for a job I was qualified for and experienced in, in favour of a man with no relevant qualifications or experience. I was told it was because you needed to be a man to do this job. Sexism is still going on, you are very fortunate if it's not happening to you, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

If you were told that, you have every right to tribunal the everloving heck out of that company. I didn't say sexism wasn't going on. I said that life had changed since the '70s, and it has despite the poster's denial that it has. The world is a very different place, but sexism does still go on.

Flat pack - I haven't accused you of being a child molester. I asked you if child porn is acceptable if no child is abused in the making of it, in response to your insistence that porn which shows women being violently abused has no impact on wider attitudes to women or towards sexual behaviour within relationships. You could just as readily argue that watching child porn doesn't encourage adults to objectify and abuse children?

flatpack Having studied the Soviet Union I cannot see how anyone could ever be under any illusions about the Stalinist era, so by all means let him have a little taste of it. Let him come back, though, won't you?

The barbecue, bottle of wine and news blackout sounds like a good idea. I will do that.

But don't imagine I'm mellowing in my old age. Perish the thought.

Screen capture and threaten to send to his mother maybe?