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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think everyone who opposes abortion in Ireland should read this?

94 replies

skylerwhite · 31/07/2013 19:06

I had tears in my eyes reading this heart-rending story. This is a man writing about the experience he and his wife had when they were told that their much-wanted pregnancy was 'incompatible with life' due to a fatal foetal abnormality, and the grief and pain they went through as a result of having to travel to England to terminate the pregnancy.

And the bill which was just signed into law won't make a blind bit of difference to women in similar awful situations. Those with money will travel; those without are just left to put up with it. It's so frustrating and so upsetting, it makes me so fucking ANGRY.

OP posts:
MintyChops · 02/08/2013 10:52

For those saying it is old/middle aged people who are the problem my mother is 69, a lay minister of the Eucharist and utterly, totally pro-choice. She wouldn't have wanted an abortion herself and she probably wouldn't want me to have one but she thinks it is a disgrace that other women can't choose for themselves/ get proper care at home rather than have to travel. And then there's dear Lucinda Creighton.. Ugh. Shudder. Goodbye Lucinda, good riddance.

bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 11:11

No, you don't remember rightly Skyler :) In any case, I haven't claimed that I know everyone in NI/Ireland so it's quite possible that there are some people that do think abortion should be available on demand. I just don't happen to know anyone who does. Yes, some who believe that it should be available under circumstances but none who think 'on demand'.

In case you have forgotten, we happen to be discussing anencephaly so the fact that it is at the extreme end of the spectrum is irrelevant. The thread was not about abortion being available to 12 year old rape victims.

IneedAsockamnesty · 02/08/2013 11:14

Ami right in thinking that if they suspect you are traveling to terminate then they can stop you doing so?

Original poster
skylerwhite · 02/08/2013 11:25

In case you have forgotten, we happen to be discussing anencephaly so the fact that it is at the extreme end of the spectrum is irrelevant. The thread was not about abortion being available to 12 year old rape victims.

Confused Are you trying to dictate what people can discuss on this thread?

Sockreturningpixie No, women are not stopped from travelling for terminations. There was a notorious case in the early 1990s, the X Case, in which a 14 year old rape victim was initially prevented from travelling to England for a termination by the government and the High Court. The Supreme Court ruled that this was unconstitutional, and a subsequent referendum ensured that women had the right to travel.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 11:33

No Skyler, I am not. I was asking why 12 year old rape victims always come up in discussions about abortion, regardless of what the original topic might be. The fact that anencephaly also happens to be at the extreme end of the spectrum is not comparable because that was what the thread was originally about.

Chunderella · 02/08/2013 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PrincessTeacake · 02/08/2013 14:43

Not all middle aged and elderly voters, but the majority of them. My mother is 55, and in most respects quite liberal, and she's pro life. I was given my sex education by a nun, it was completely reproduction centred and I didnt know anything about abortion until well into my late teens. This was the late nineties. So many people making the choices are woefully ignorant and badly educated. Even now its still acknowledged that most of the good schools are the ones attached to the church, Educate Together is finally catching up but the church stkll has a stranglehold on our society.

bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 16:47

I move in pretty wide circles Chunder. :) I also know plenty of people in the UK/US who don't support the idea of abortion on demand either.

Original poster
skylerwhite · 02/08/2013 16:50

That's fine, bumbley. If people don't support abortion on demand, they don't have to have one. My problem is when they try to dictate to other women what they can or can't do.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 16:56

Well thats the way laws work isn't it? They tell us what we can and can't do.

Chunderella · 02/08/2013 17:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

motherinferior · 02/08/2013 17:29

Er...middle aged and elderly women were the ones leading the feminist demand for abortion actually. Don't slag us off!

bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 17:38

How lovely for you Chunder :)

Original poster
skylerwhite · 02/08/2013 17:39

Laws can be immoral and unjust, bumbley. We don't all have to sit back and accept that they are inherently righteous.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 17:41

You're entitled to your opinion Skyler but that doesn't always make you right.

Chunderella · 02/08/2013 17:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
skylerwhite · 02/08/2013 17:46

So bumbley do you think that the case referred to in the OP was right? That that couple had to travel to England and have what was already a traumatic situation inestimably worsened due to Ireland's laws?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 17:50

No, but I don't think that means that abortion should be available 'on demand' either. I wouldn't stand behind someone who supports the idea that abortion should be available 'on demand' to term or that thinks a foetus has no right to life until it is born.

Original poster
skylerwhite · 02/08/2013 17:52

Ok, then you would agree that the legislation which was just signed into law is in itself inadequate, since it does not provide for abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 18:03

It's a difficult one. I can see why it's such a tragic situation for the parents to be in but I can't reconcile myself with the idea that it is ok to take another human life even if that life is limited. I know we disagree on the definition of human life so I don't expect you to understand that.

LucyBabs · 02/08/2013 21:04

bumblymummy

With a fetal abnormality or a non viable pregnancy its ending the life of a foetus that is possibly in pain. The woman and her partner will be going through hell. Honestly how you think continuing with a pregnancy in these circumstances is right is beyond me.

You seem to lack any compassion or empathy.. Sorry..

bumbleymummy · 02/08/2013 23:34

Lucy, would you feel the same about ending the life of a young baby if it had a life limiting condition and may be in pain? I'm actually surprised that you suggested the foetus might be in pain. Most people who support the idea of abortion don't tend to acknowledge that possibility.

I'm not sure why you think I'm lacking in compassion or sympathy (I can't empathise because I haven't experienced it myself) As I have already said, I think it is very sad and tragic for any parent to discover that their child will not survive. The only difference is that I see that foetus as already having a life, and I struggle with the idea of having the control to end it, even though it its life may be limited.

LucyBabs · 03/08/2013 00:00

The reason i say you lack empathy is, correct me if I'm wrong but you have been pregnant?
If you have surely you can put yourself in these womens shoes?

Being forced to carry a pregnancy that you know will result in a stillborn baby or a baby that will only live for a short time and in pain is inhumane.

You make the point of ending the life of a baby that has been born with a life limiting disorder?

I think you'll find these babys that are born are not being kept alive with medication, the doctors and nurses will keep them comfortable but when the time comes the baby will die and the doctors do not intervene.

Some women can not carry on with the pregnancy knowing that their baby cannot survive and is in pain, some women do carry the pregnancy to term and thats fine for them but there should be a choice

We're talking about disorders that are incompatible with life, there is NO chance they can survive.

VenusSurprising · 03/08/2013 00:20

When I was pregnant in the ROI I was not offered any neural tube defect test. My consultant didn't do them, as she thought women would abort if they found out they had a baby with a defect, and she was ethically opposed to terminations.

Maybe that's why there are so many babies born with ntd and genetic abnormalities, like downes syndrome: the tests aren't routinely offered.
I had to ask for a test as I was 35 at the time, and my risk was high. Another doctor did the test.

I think the whole issue is so tragic: to have to terminate because of estrogen dependent maternal cancer, or to have to terminate because of maternal depression and suicide risk, or to have to have a little babe who you know will die just after birth. Or to be made to carry to term the product of a rape.

All these are difficult situations, and we must be kind and generous in our treatment of them. It's such a grey area, and people do seem to have very black and white views on the whole issue.

bumbleymummy · 03/08/2013 09:10

Lucy, I can sympathise, not empathise, because I haven't experienced what they have.

I'm not sure how medication could keep a baby with anencephaly alive for any length of time. I know that they will die (usually within a few days). My question is do you think a doctor should be allowed to kill babies that have been born with life limiting conditions and/or may be in pain?

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