to think everyone who opposes abortion in Ireland should read this?

[skylerwhite]

I had tears in my eyes reading this heart-rending story. This is a man writing about the experience he and his wife had when they were told that their much-wanted pregnancy was 'incompatible with life' due to a fatal foetal abnormality, and the grief and pain they went through as a result of having to travel to England to terminate the pregnancy.

And the bill which was just signed into law won't make a blind bit of difference to women in similar awful situations. Those with money will travel; those without are just left to put up with it. It's so frustrating and so upsetting, it makes me so fucking ANGRY.

[bumbleymummy]

Think we xposted

[skylerwhite]

So not in the circumstances referred to in the OP then?

[bumbleymummy]

Although, as I said earlier, I do struggle with FFA. :(

[bumbleymummy]

Yes, if the woman's life is at risk. Although I think the foetus' life should be preserved wherever possible.

[skylerwhite]

Sorry, I can't remember. Genuine question.

[bumbleymummy]

You know that already skyler, from the other thread.

[skylerwhite]

Are there any circumstances in which you think abortion is justifiable, bumbley? Just wondering.

[bumbleymummy]

Brutha, it's whether she has the right to determine what happens to another's body that is the issue in abortion.

[bumbleymummy]

Not at all skyler, I asked why they always come up on abortion threads. In any case, the question I am asking is relevant. Some people (and I realise that you don't fall into this category) do actually consider the foetus to be a live baby so would find it comparable to thinking it is ok to take the life of a baby born with a life limiting/painful condition. I was wondering what other people's thoughts on that were. It's not really euthanasia because you are making the decision on another person's behalf.

[Bruthastortoise]

I wasn't sure about that either skyler, you'd think given they're all porn addicts that there wouldn't be much about sex that confuses them

Really shouldn't rise to it...

[skylerwhite]

There are rapists and porn-addicts in Ireland as well, wunderbar, where abortion is not permitted. How do you explain that?

I can't comment on 'sexually confused' boys, as I don't know what you mean by that.

[Bruthastortoise]

Well the UK abortion act was passed in the 1960s wunderbar so you're about 50 years too late to consider the thought that woman have a right to choose what's happens to their bodies as a modern opinion.

[skylerwhite]

Oh dear.

[wunderbar1]

Wonderful modern opinions - support Abortion, then wonder why-oh-why marriage and family life (and civilisation itself) are breaking down, why boys are growing up rapists, porn-addicts or sexually confused. If you want the Sexual Revolution, you've got to put up with the consequences.

[skylerwhite]

I don't have a problem with people bringing up other issues, bumbley. You did earlier - when it was an issue you disagreed with/felt uncomfortable with - yet rather hypocritically, you are now doing the same thing.

[bumbleymummy]

Skyler "Are you trying to dictate what people can discuss on this thread?"

[skylerwhite]

We were talking about anencephaly and abortion in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities, why do we need to bring 12 year old pregnant rape victims into the discussion?

It's ironic, bumbley, that you were objecting upthread to people bringing up what you determined as irrelevant issues (12 year old pregnant rape victims). Yet here you are talking about killing babies with life-limiting conditions. Why?

[bumbleymummy]

Do sorry to hear about your friend's baby Sleepy. :( I think it must be very hard for anyone who loses a baby at a later stage either through stillbirth, late miscarriage, FFA etc to deal with the questions from people who knew you were pregnant but don't know the outcome.

I'm just wondering what your views are about babies being born with life limiting conditions who may be in pain. Should doctors be allowed to kill them?

[BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy]

There was a lady I knew a few years ago whose ds was stillborn. When out and about people would enquire to how her baby was and the pain and heartbreak as she explained her ds was stillborn is forever etched in my mind. Its barbaric and cruel to force women to give birth to a baby that will not live and its short hours/days will be filled with pain.

[bumbleymummy]

Lucy, I can sympathise, not empathise, because I haven't experienced what they have.

I'm not sure how medication could keep a baby with anencephaly alive for any length of time. I know that they will die (usually within a few days). My question is do you think a doctor should be allowed to kill babies that have been born with life limiting conditions and/or may be in pain?

[VenusSurprising]

When I was pregnant in the ROI I was not offered any neural tube defect test. My consultant didn't do them, as she thought women would abort if they found out they had a baby with a defect, and she was ethically opposed to terminations.

Maybe that's why there are so many babies born with ntd and genetic abnormalities, like downes syndrome: the tests aren't routinely offered.
I had to ask for a test as I was 35 at the time, and my risk was high. Another doctor did the test.

I think the whole issue is so tragic: to have to terminate because of estrogen dependent maternal cancer, or to have to terminate because of maternal depression and suicide risk, or to have to have a little babe who you know will die just after birth. Or to be made to carry to term the product of a rape.

All these are difficult situations, and we must be kind and generous in our treatment of them. It's such a grey area, and people do seem to have very black and white views on the whole issue.

[LucyBabs]

The reason i say you lack empathy is, correct me if I'm wrong but you have been pregnant?
If you have surely you can put yourself in these womens shoes?

Being forced to carry a pregnancy that you know will result in a stillborn baby or a baby that will only live for a short time and in pain is inhumane.

You make the point of ending the life of a baby that has been born with a life limiting disorder?

I think you'll find these babys that are born are not being kept alive with medication, the doctors and nurses will keep them comfortable but when the time comes the baby will die and the doctors do not intervene.

Some women can not carry on with the pregnancy knowing that their baby cannot survive and is in pain, some women do carry the pregnancy to term and thats fine for them but there should be a choice

We're talking about disorders that are incompatible with life, there is NO chance they can survive.

[bumbleymummy]

Lucy, would you feel the same about ending the life of a young baby if it had a life limiting condition and may be in pain? I'm actually surprised that you suggested the foetus might be in pain. Most people who support the idea of abortion don't tend to acknowledge that possibility.

I'm not sure why you think I'm lacking in compassion or sympathy (I can't empathise because I haven't experienced it myself) As I have already said, I think it is very sad and tragic for any parent to discover that their child will not survive. The only difference is that I see that foetus as already having a life, and I struggle with the idea of having the control to end it, even though it its life may be limited.

[LucyBabs]

bumblymummy

With a fetal abnormality or a non viable pregnancy its ending the life of a foetus that is possibly in pain. The woman and her partner will be going through hell. Honestly how you think continuing with a pregnancy in these circumstances is right is beyond me.

You seem to lack any compassion or empathy.. Sorry..

[bumbleymummy]

It's a difficult one. I can see why it's such a tragic situation for the parents to be in but I can't reconcile myself with the idea that it is ok to take another human life even if that life is limited. I know we disagree on the definition of human life so I don't expect you to understand that.