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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To expect a reference without a bloody song and dance

52 replies

monkeynuts123 · 31/07/2013 16:19

I was a good student on a degree programme and graduated with a good 2:1, never missed a deadline, always hardworking etc. I asked the course leader for a reference months ago and she went on and on about how much work she had to do and that she couldn't get it done for another 3 weeks even though this meant I missed the deadline for application. Finally she gave me the ref and the deadline was extended anyway. Then I have decided to apply for something else and asked her again today and she sent me an email saying sorry I can't do this for you because I have too much work to do and am off soon on annual leave. I mean excuse me but isn't writing references for ex-students part of her job? She was really dismissive and I feel very upset about this. I have wondered if she is jealous because the job I went for previously was a higher position than her and I got it, the same again for this new position. I want to complain to her manager but I work in a very small industry and don't want to have bad feeling. I just think this is really shit. AIBU? and would you complain? All she has to do is resend the one she wrote before. She has suggested another lecturer but ideally it should come from the course leader.

OP posts:

MrsTerryPratchett · 31/07/2013 16:21

I had a shit bloke for mine. I 'made friends' with a lovely lecturer who has done all of mine since. It has been over a decade and she still remembers me and writes references. I would go with the other lecturer if it will make waves to complain.

SpooMoo · 31/07/2013 17:40

Tough one. She clearly doesn't think too highly of you so I wouldn't go after a reference from her now anyway. I recall one of my friends paying a former lecturer for her time as she needed her to write a few references (never considered this myself) which was accepted with good grace. You can't complain to her manager that she won't give you a reference though! YABU.

ageofgrandillusion · 31/07/2013 17:51

I'd be fuming with this personally. Some people are just so full of shite, hot air and excuses when it comes to the workplace. Arent there laws about giving people references?
I personally would phrase a very strongly worded letter/email to the dean (you will be able to track down their email address somewhere ) of the university basically outlining the situation and explaining that they are supposed to be helping students, not hindering them. Cc this person's direct boss in.

Svrider · 31/07/2013 18:14

If you already have a job, use those as references
Or ask for an open reference so you can make copies

ilovesooty · 31/07/2013 18:17

She is not obliged to give you a reference and obviously isn't keen to do so. I'd get someone else to do it.

yabyum · 31/07/2013 18:20

Arent there laws about giving people references?

No. Find someone else.

chemenger · 31/07/2013 18:27

I am a lecturer and write references all the time, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. They are easy when you know/knew a student well but much harder if it is a student you had little contact with. Did this person supervise your dissertation or a project group you were in or did she just have you in larger group teaching scenarios? Where I work students and alumni are expected to approach their personal tutors first rather than heads of department or directors of teaching - might this be the problem; that you are not following normal practice?
If she is so openly reluctant to do this for you you will end up with a three line reference which will do nothing more than confirm your degree, would it be better to get an alternative referee in that case?
Generally references are very constrained nowadays, their is so little we can say that most companies are using them just to confirm you are who you say you are rather than getting real information. In my area references are seldom taken up until the job is offered so there is even less point in giving any opinion.

Original poster

monkeynuts123 · 31/07/2013 18:33

I knew this tutor very well and she was always enthusiastic about my work, at one point even wanting me to contribute to a book of hers. Hot air is about right, she flounces around with a real air of self-importance. I'm pissed off because this is her job description, to work with students. I can't imagine any reason why she wouldn't want to give me a reference, and know the one she gave me before was good (presumably wouldn't have got the job otherwise). I just feel like I've been made to feel I'm badgering her and it's her sodding job! It would be treated as a formal complaint wouldn't it though and we're part of a small industry and I'd be worried about that, and I'm pissed off about that too, it's like I'm over a barrel.

OP posts:

ilovesooty · 31/07/2013 18:40

I'm sorry but providing a reference is something she might do as a courtesy: you don't have a right to one. I really think you'd be better asking someone else, as she's suggested.

gobbin · 31/07/2013 18:46

It's not 'her sodding job'.
Nobody is obliged to provide a reference for anone else.
The rules relate to honesty and accuracy in a reference that HAS been provided.
I wrote 45 references for students last year. Thankfully, I only needed to write 10 this year as they take a lot of time out of an already very busy day. It pissed me off that, of the 45 I wrote last year, 2 students didn't even bother to then pick them up as instructed. If they need a further reference in a couple of years' time you can guess who will be saying 'I haven't got time, sorry.'

TylerHopkins · 31/07/2013 18:51

Perhaps she's applying for the same job, you never know!

ZZZenagain · 31/07/2013 18:51

I don't think giving a reference is part of her job. However if the reference has already been written, it is possible she could print it out and leave it with the secretary for you to collect and post yourself. It would depend on how confidential she felt the reference should be. Would that be a possibility? If you did go and collect it, I would consider taking a box of chocolates or a bottle of plonk to say thanks. As you said, the reference she gave you must have been good since you got the job.

It does actually take time and thought to write a fair and good reference, so it would be polite to thank her for her time and effort. It probably feels as if it is not asking for much but if you imagine this multiplied by all the students she has each year and then from past years, it could add up and as she said she is stressed out winding things up before she goes on holiday.

ageofgrandillusion · 31/07/2013 18:52

No it's not her job Gobbin but it is one of those things that some of us are happy to do to help others, especially with the jobs market being what it is. It's called being nice.

chemenger · 31/07/2013 18:54

I would have to check but I think providing academic references is a duty of personal tutors but not for other staff where I work. I have colleagues who are quite genuinely too busy to fit in an extra task (which would involve looking up the student's record, writing the text in the required form and sometimes wrestling with online submission systems that are less than user friendly, probably an hour's work). I know plenty of people who who work 50 - 60 hours a week and more before they go on leave. Asking for another hour might just push them over the edge. Maybe you could consider that she is telling the truth when she says she can't do it.
I hope she doesn't read this - if you described me as flouncing about with an air of self-importance you would get a very carefully worded reference! You don't have much respect for her do you?

LadyofSituations · 31/07/2013 19:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gobbin · 31/07/2013 19:12

Yes ageofgrandillusion as I said, I was 'being nice' to the tune of 45 references last year. It is not an aspect of my job that I particularly get thrilled about, given that each one takes between 30mins to an hour to do, depending on how much background info I need to assist me in writing them. That was equivalent to an extra working week fitted into a block of about a month!

The odd one here and there throughout the year isn't a problem, but they do have a tendency to bunch in spring/summer when I least have time. I'd be pretty pissed off if an ex-student felt 'entitled'. Thankfully, mine know that I'll do anything for them as long as they are polite and are appreciative of the work I've done for them. Unlike the 2 last year who didn't bother to pick them up.

Original poster

monkeynuts123 · 31/07/2013 19:30

For the record I work at an ivy league university in the states and write references until they flood out of my arse, there is nothing I wouldn't do for a good student to help them on their way. I have asked her line manager to assist me in obtaining a reference. Oh and she does flounce about to busy to do her job, pah!

OP posts:

skylerwhite · 31/07/2013 19:35

So are you an academic then monkeynuts? I can't quite get my head around this. If you work in higher education (and esp if you are an academic) then you surely know the dangers of a lukewarm reference. I think she's trying to give you a polite hint that she would not write you a favourable reference. You should take the hint and ask someone else.

PenguinBear · 31/07/2013 19:39

^agreed.

Original poster

monkeynuts123 · 31/07/2013 19:39

She was the one who gave me the reference for this current job. There is no way the ref could have been lukewarm, I wouldn't have got the job otherwise. Plus I graduated with a first class degree.... no need to write me a crap ref, got along with all staff, excellent attendance. I think it's a simple case of her not doing her job properly.

OP posts:

StrangeGlue · 31/07/2013 19:43

Why does it specifically need to be from her if you already got a job from the previous reference? Can you not get a reference from your current employer.

Unless you are very familiar with her contract you don't know whether or not its part of her job.

Personally if she's said no I'd drop it. Even if you get something in the end it'll be half arsed. And, unless I'm missing something, I don't understand why it must be her.

You're coming across as a but flouncy and entitled yourself but I'm going to assume that's just hyperbole.

skylerwhite · 31/07/2013 19:43

So you are an academic? Then why are you asking someone who seems to have taught you at undergrad level for a reference? That's very unusual. Or have I misunderstood?

chemenger · 31/07/2013 19:44

If you are an academic why are looking to get a reference from your first degree? Surely you need to find more appropriate referees?

takeaway2 · 31/07/2013 19:44

Erm her job is to research, teach and do admin competently. There is no obligation to come up with references especially for people who sound as ungrateful as you. I hope she does come on MN. People do go on leave you know? I go in two weeks and I don't have a single day free from now till then. I have an entire programme to put straight, a programme handbook to edit, a paper to finish and submit and 4 modules to prep for (of which one is from scratch). Oh I forget, I have 10 projects to supervise and this morning came back from a research project meeting with clients.

takeaway2 · 31/07/2013 19:47

And I wouldn't call sending an email saying sorry I can't do it, as 'bloody song and dance'!!!

And yes if you are an academic why do you need a ref from your first degree teacher? Shouldn't it be your current boss?

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