To expect a reference without a bloody song and dance

[monkeynuts123]

I was a good student on a degree programme and graduated with a good 2:1, never missed a deadline, always hardworking etc. I asked the course leader for a reference months ago and she went on and on about how much work she had to do and that she couldn't get it done for another 3 weeks even though this meant I missed the deadline for application. Finally she gave me the ref and the deadline was extended anyway. Then I have decided to apply for something else and asked her again today and she sent me an email saying sorry I can't do this for you because I have too much work to do and am off soon on annual leave. I mean excuse me but isn't writing references for ex-students part of her job? She was really dismissive and I feel very upset about this. I have wondered if she is jealous because the job I went for previously was a higher position than her and I got it, the same again for this new position. I want to complain to her manager but I work in a very small industry and don't want to have bad feeling. I just think this is really shit. AIBU? and would you complain? All she has to do is resend the one she wrote before. She has suggested another lecturer but ideally it should come from the course leader.

In your first post you had a 2.1, now it's a 1st?

You're not coming over well at all. You described this person as self important. I think you seem very self important on this thread.

Well spotted chemenger!

Yes takeaway....all of which you are paid for.

Not for writing sodding references for people like you I'm not.

chemenger I was trying not to out myself, well spotted! Anyway Ladies I'm leaving it there. Thanks for your feedback and all those academics, enjoy your annual leave

In the immortal words of MN - you sound lovely.

Best of luck in your career.

Actually I am going to give you some advice. In academia and especially in a small field you need to make friends, not enemies. No matter what you think of this woman she has been doing this for longer than you, she has friends, probably all over the world. You probably don't.

Wow. I don't blame this woman not wishing to write for you. I certainly wouldn't.

Oh I must leave this alone! She actually has a professional reputation of being a bit of a pain in the arse and generally is feared and not well liked.

'Pain in the arse... not well liked'? Are you sure it's not yourself you're describing?

It is not her job to write a reference for an ex-student!!

If she is not well liked don't get a reference from her.

I was just on an interview panel appointing someone and frankly we relied on the v well written reference letter written on her behalf by her ex supervisor. She told us aspects of her personality which we were unsure about and urged us to look beyond the candidate's initial behaviour.

That got the candidate the job. The panel was undecided before that.

I agree takeaway, a good reference can make a big difference in an academic panel, but I don't remember even seeing a reference from an undergrad course.

No exactly! I see references from ex supervisors, heads of school, programme directors, PIs... External collaborators... Not ug programmes. Unless its for a pg programme place..?

And US PhD programme references take forever, even worse are funding application references for US charities, they can take hours.

I have wondered if she is jealous because the job I went for previously was a higher position than her and I got it

This is the bit that doesn't make sense to me. If OP is in a senior academic position, why is she asking her undergrad course leader to write references?

Some jobs ask that you reference every stage of your life. Now I'm defo off before I may as well write my name and address!!!!

Sounds like she maybe gave you a glowing reference the first time to ensure you ended up with a good bit of distance between you! I'm curious as to which job it is that requires references for all life stages.

I am a trustee of an educational charity which gives small grants to students and ex-students of the local college under the age of 25. We ask for and rely on references from tutors and provide clear guidelines for the information we seek and advise applicants to ensure their referees know our deadlines. Our grants can be game changers for the applicants. We frequently have to postpone making a decision because the reference has not been received. Both teachers from the college and academics often appear incapable of writing an informative reference without being chased. It appears that a similar insouciance applies to job references.

The advice that we are given on writing references constrains what can be written considerably. We are told to give only verifiably factual information - period of study, classification of degree attained (no predictions), membership of clubs and societies. We are told not to offer opinion on character, potential etc. Academics have been successfully sued over references in the past. I would never say anything that could remotely be construed as negative in a reference. A frank reference is a thing of the past. I think most people do give more than minimum information, but only positive. I'm not going to say "X is incapable of meeting deadlines and struggles with writing clear text" even if that is exactly what the reader needs to know. The problem comes when the reference request specifically asks for things we are advised not to provide.
Most major companies I deal with no longer ask for detailed references, in the case of one oil company they phone and confirm the student's degree and say "anything we should know" to which I reply either "not really" or "you've made a good choice there" and we part happy.
I agree that all this must make things difficult for organisations that rely on references and I would never intentionally cause problems for a student by being late with a reference or refuse to give one unless the timing is such that I know I won't be available to write it.

Agree chemenger!

Particularly the bit about how I would never deliberately be late especially if I'd already agreed. If I can't meet the deadline (eg deadline is on Friday and the request comes in on Thursday and even then I try unless I'm out of the office alot) then I don't agree. I think it's unfair to say that academics are late for references.