To be really offended and infact mighty pissed off!

[chubbymomie2012]

I have a beauty therapist who comes to my house to do waxing nails etc ( because i have 4 kids, saves me taking then all with me) she has only been coming a few months but last month she requested me as a friend on facebook so I accepted, she seemed nice enough.

Last night I was havng a flick through it when I saw a post she had on. It was a Photo of 4 Coke bottles. 3 bottles had girls names on them including Aoibhe and orlaith. Obvious Irish names. the fourth had the word Fenians on it. her comment was "Ha Ha True!"

AIBU to be insulted and to think even if she holds these bigoted outdated opinions, she is in a profession where she shouldnt be broadcasting them, and AIBU not to have her near my house again!

[Neitheronethingortheother]

I live in the South and I wouldnt see anything offensive about the term fenian but thats because the troubles havent affected me in a personal way at all. I guess those living in NI know best how the term is used and the intent behind it. I couldnt believe it when I heard a newsreader on the BBC news calling Derry, Londonderry. I was about 20 at the time and I hadnt realised that it was called Derry by the Irish and Londonderry by the English.

[pianodoodle]

claig I was letting you know the reality of how the term is applied in an offensive way and is not acceptable. Even songs including it can be considered by some to be less about "pride" and more about incitement. It depends on context.

I know my own culture. The history lesson is not necessary and a little bit patronising :(

[treaclesoda]

You often find newsreaders alternate between Derry and Londonderry, so that no one is offended. Or everyone is offended, depending on how you look at it

I was just chatting to someone recently about this. In a way it would be lovely to rename the whole place with something everyone can get behind.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

It's actually officially Derry/LondonDerry. But most people call it Derry not just the Catholics - it's shorter. And historically accurate. Most people don't call Kingston on Thames KoT - they call it Kingston.

[Pagwatch]

I understand Claig and I am not trying to argue with you.

I just think those best placed to determine if the op is right to be offended are those grimly familiar with the local everyday usage of the word rather than someone who has never contemplated it's history or meaning before.

[Belchica]

Claig, I understand you are trying to educate yourself, but I think you are distracted from the OPs question.

Just to be clear, in this context, the use of the term Fenian on coke bottles, next to Irish girls names, posted on FB, is undoubtedly intended as an insult to Catholics. I very much doubt the idiots who repost and laugh at this 'joke' have any idea of the origins of or history behind the word.

[sashh]

claig

Sometimes black rappers call themselves 'nigger', does that mean it is not offensive when shouted by a racist with the word 'bastard' after it?

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

I apologise for my earlier tone. Although not the content.

[LadyClariceCannockMonty]

Jamie, absolutely. Of course I condemn these abhorrent views (I really hope I made that clear!). I also said that I agree the OP should cut contact with this person and tell her why.

All I'm saying, and I guess it's a bit off topic/general musing for this thread, is that events like this raise questions about finding out things about people that might not come up otherwise.

[HooverFairy]

Ignorance is not an excuse, I have never heard the term but the explanations on here show that the photograph and comments were bound to offend. Good for you OP, get her off your Facebook and out of your house. She might appear lovely when she's providing her beauty service but she's obviously not that 'lovely' if she can make prejudice jokes, anyone working with the public should keep controversial views to themselves, airing them on Facebook not only shows her true colours but also implies that she's a bit thick. She's actually done you a favour really, you're no longer going to be giving your money to someone so disrespectful.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

Lady

It's FB I tel you!! Nothing but trouble.

[claig]

"Sometimes black rappers call themselves 'nigger', does that mean it is not offensive when shouted by a racist with the word 'bastard' after it?"

Yes of course it is offensive, and Fenian is offensive if used by protestants to denigrate Catholics and Irish republicans, but I don't believe the use of teh word Fenian is offensive when used in Irish nationalist songs as sung by Irish nationalists and republicans such as the Wolfe Tones.

It is all about context.

If the beauty threapist in this thread is Catholic (and are we sure that she is not) then I don't think the use of 'Fenian' will be derogatory.

[pianodoodle]

Do we know whether teh hairdresser is protestant or Catholic and are we sure that she used teh term Fenian in a bigotted way?

Sigh... Yes and yes. The OP points that out very clearly. What the Wolfe Tones have to say about the matter is irrelevant in this case.

This may be one of those times where you just won't understand (no offence at all) but may have to just trust the opinions of those familiar with this sort of thing who know that it is not acceptable any more.

[LadyClariceCannockMonty]

Yes, it's a funny one isn't it, Jamie? I'm not sure whether it changes the way people behave and what they think and say, or if it just reveals what was there already. And it does raise the question of, if you find out things about people that you otherwise wouldn't, what does it mean and does it matter? And if it matters, how?

I think anyone who blurs professional with personal on FB needs to be very careful ? not just to hide whatever vile views they have but also to keep some sort of professional distance.

[BMW6]

Well speaking as an English non religious person, I understood immediatley that the post was meant to be derogatory. To me the word Fenian connects to the IRA bombings.

You are VDNBU OP. The hairdresser is an ignorant twat.

[claig]

OK, well I said I didn't understand it, and I don't understand what this facebook comment with the coke bottles means, so I can't say whether the OP is being reasonable about stopping doing business with her.

If the beauty therapist is a bigot, then by all means stop doing business with her, but I don't know if she is for sure.

[mamalovesmojitos]

Claig. I can tell you, along with many other posters, that it is a derogatory term. Why can't you accept that? It is great that you are researching more around the subject and have questions but this is not the thread to explore it. If you don't understand the very basic concept that 'Fenian' is regularly used as an insult, I don't see how you can make a helpful contribution to the op.

[claig]

mama, try to read my posts

"If you don't understand the very basic concept that 'Fenian' is regularly used as an insult"

Of course I understand that it is regularly used as an insult by some protestants.

[treaclesoda]

BMW6 I think your point illustrates something that is so hard for people outside of NI to get their heads round. It really really isn't about religion. Its about being perceived as belongong to one group or another. Fenian, in this context, is clearly an insult but Fenian refers to Irish Republicanism, not the Catholic faith. The people here in NI who hold the most entrenched, bigoted views, the most bitter people, are people who have probably never passed through the door of a religious establishment. They call themselves Protestants or Catholics because they identify themselves in that way, but its not about the religion.

[claig]

And if the beauty therapist is one of them, then YANBU in stopping doing business with her.

[pianodoodle]

Also OP I forgot to say YANBU :)

If I thought someone held this type of view about me or engaged in that kind of silly talk I wouldn't want to give them my money.

[skylerwhite]

Roshbegosh The idea that the Black and Tans were recruited out of prisons is common, but inaccurate, I'm afraid. About 0.6% of Black and Tans had prison records. That this perception has persisted demonstrates the effectiveness of Irish republican propaganda around this time.

Mind you the Irish specials were supposed to be even worse as they were like collaborators against their own people. What do you mean by this? Who do you mean by this?

[wigglesrock]

claig I think we established a while ago that the beauty therapist was probably not reclaiming the word.

Look, with the best will in the world, it is something that is very hard to explain - how hurtful a particular phrase/word can be especially to someone and I don't mean you in particular that hasn't really experienced it.

I'm almost 40, I have lived in around Belfast for most of my life. I was in my 20s when the Good Friday agreement was signed, I voted for it, I fought for it. I don't want my kids lives to be harder because of their religion - bandying about the word Fenian on FB brings me back - it's ugly, sectarian, hatefilled. Yes, there is a difference between the bloody tweeness that is the Wolfetones and someone referring to someone as a Fenian in reference to their name. I wouldn't think Wikipedia to tell you that.

[chubbymomie2012]

Girls ye are all great! I was feeling really shit when i posted this this morning but for some odd reason im now cheered right up! (probably my warped norn irish humour)

I have phoned the wee doll in question and told her i wanted to cancel all apts and explained i saw the facebook post and felt it was unprofessional and rightly or wrongly i am insulted! she actually waffled about it being her opinion and wouldnt affect her ability to do her job and really if i didnt like it i was right to cancel the apts!

so seems she only wants like minded peeps as clients, its nice in these times of austerity she can pick and choose clients.

[claig]

wigglesrock, you said early on

"Oh, is it an injoke? Are they her kids names and is she making a point? I'm not sure if she's using Fenian to describe names of family or to describe other people, if you see what I mean."

I don't understand the facebook comment and said that I thought maybe you were right. I don't know the beauty therapist's religion or whether she is a bigot.

But if we have established that she is a bigot, then obviously the term was used offensively and the OP should stop doing business with her.