To ask your views on bdsm relationships

[McNewPants2013]

I have been reading a lot of books about this and have came to a conclusion that with a trusting relationship it can work.

So what is your view.

[McNewPants2013]

So taking my example if the patient refused to have the procedure done, then it would be assault and an abuse of power.

[AgentZigzag]

But whether it's legal or illegal depends on one persons private thoughts, which are impossible to measure.

Outward consent and it's a private sexual act, lack of obvious consent and it's abuse.

[McNewPants2013]

I am going for an extreme example.

We all know that once a person says stop to sex if another person continues in normally cases it would be rape, but if a sub says stop then the Dom don't it isn't rape. Because it could be the game is getting to much as she says stop but wants it to continue. However if she uses the safe word then he stops that the right thing however if he doesn't then it would be rape.

Is that the correct way to think

[AgentZigzag]

I reckon that's a really good example of exactly what I'm saying.

Does it matter if you can't tell because it's a private situation between two people?

It goes a long way to explaining the excuses a lot of people come up with as to how rape isn't rape, someone can always argue it was something else because the act isn't a tangible entity you can look at objectively.

To the man it wasn't rape but to the woman it was.

[SolidGoldBrass]

McNewPants I think your problem is that the fiction you have been reading is fairly crap. As to the example you've just given: yes it's rape if the dom doesn't stop when asked to. However, one of the reasons people who are into BDSM use safewords is that, for some participants, the fantasy/roleplay of saying no while meaning yes is part of the fun, so the safeword is something like 'Red' or 'Sugarlumps' so it's a clear indication that the game is over.

But unfortunately there is no social/cultural/subcultural group of people which is totally free of abusers. Being into BDSM and aware of good negotiating practice won't completely guarantee you are safe from abuse. Avoiding BDSM because it's weird shit done by sickoes won't guarantee you are safe from abuse either.

[McNewPants2013]

I am in no fear of being abused by my husband. ( I hope any way)

I think after starting this thread I understand that not every relationship is the same.

[nickymanchester]

As LEMisdisappointed said above

I'm not into role play but i admit that feeling of vulnerability is intoxicating. My fantasies are extreme, our reality is tame and loving.

and I can totally go along with the rest of her post.

Outside of the bedroom I am, I will admit, rather bossy. But there's nothing I like better than being forcibly tied to the bed and having naughty things done to me.

Or being spanked and then having my DH ... TMI, I'll stop there.

This works for me on a number of different levels, both physically and pscychologically.

Although, as AnonymousKinkyCoward said right at the start of this thread, this is all just part of a game we play sometimes in the bedroom when we are both in the mood - not a full time lifestyle thing.

There is a wide spectrum of bdsm that people can be on, even without identifying as being such - or perhaps that should be spectra? There are a number of different, albeit related, activities involved here.

For example, somebody who really likes being tied to the bed and being taken advantage of may get absolutely nothing out of physical pain. So don't always assume that everybody on the bdsm spectrum - god, that makes it sound like a disease or something - is into everything, as they very definitely are not.

I would suggest that an absolutely tiny number of people are into a lifestyle bdsm thing but a very large number of people do find aspects of bdsm exciting.

For example, has your partner ever held your wrists above your head, pinning you to the bed while having sex - or have you done it to him? Or has he ever given you a playful spank on the bum?

These are bdsm activities - these are all very mild bdsm things to do.

[AgentZigzag]

'But unfortunately there is no social/cultural/subcultural group of people which is totally free of abusers.'

But because the act is one of violence which we are intolerant (as such) of it in this society, in a lot of people's minds the illegal and legal are not easy things to tease apart.

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction, then surely as a group of people they're going to be more likely to have different ethical/moral values to the norm.

And that can be worrying to some because we like things to be predictable, if someone's singing from a different hymn sheet then what else are they capable of doing?

[McNewPants2013]

I have to say yes he has, and I haven't had a problem with it.

[nickymanchester]

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction

Well, I've got no distressing/traumatic issues at all with my past and I've certainly got no problem with my DH spanking me from time to time - quite the opposite, in fact.

You and your partner should perhaps learn how to do it well - spanking for example - and give it a go before condemning it or, at least, accept that it is wrong to think that just because something isn't a turn on for you that there must be something wrong with people who do find it a turn on.

As was said by another MNetter on a different thread - YKINMK Your kink isn't my kink

[AgentZigzag]

I should give sexual violence a go before I make up my mind about it nicky.

Err, no ta.

I have opinions on all sorts of things without having any direct experience of them, as I'm sure you do.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Zigzag, that's a bit like saying that if people are not heterosexual, there must be something wrong with them. For people who are generally mentally healthy, an interest in BDSM is not that different from an interest in horror films/rollercoasters/extreme sport. It is, or can be, about challenging your body or your mind in a safe, controlled way. And there is a really big range of behaviours and activities that could be considered BDSM-related but which are fun, safe and quite widely enjolyed. Even the wussiest, most screamingly heteronormative sex manuals might suggest dressing up for sex, for example, or blindfolding one partner so as to increase their awareness of their other four senses.

[AgentZigzag]

But you have equally strong opinions of non-weirds SGB.

How are those valid opinions if you've never experienced non-wierdness yourself



I'm not condemning anyone who's into it, like you've said, anyone can be abusive at any time.

But as I said before, the link of violence with sex can be a pattern played out by people who commit hideous crimes. That's not saying anyone into it are going to escalate into something else, but as serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences, the two aren't completely unconnected.

[McNewPants2013]

Agent, you don't have to. but have you ever had a sexual fantasy you would like to act on, but there is something stopping that

What I have learnt after some poster kindly PM on what sites to go on is that bdsm is about acting out a fantasy and the Dom is there to be able to do that.

I have a lot better understanding on BDSM relationships.

It does sound quite erotic and reading true life isnt the same as books, but for my relationship it just wouldn't work.

[nickymanchester]

AgentZigzag I'm not condemning anyone who's into it

Oh yes you are. What did you post just a bit earlier?

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction

I really do think you are incredibly narrow minded in saying the above.

So, the only reason that I like to be tied up occasionally by my DH and do other things is that I MUST have had something distressing/traumatic happen to me in the past?

To me, you sound as though you are saying that I am in some way damaged by my past and that is the only reason for enjoying these things.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I had a really great childhood and a great time as a teenager and in my 20s as well.


serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences

This really is a load of rubbish. Are you seriously trying to suggest that sexual assaults usually happen because the attacker had previously spanked his partner on the bum a couple of times or done something similar?

[AgentZigzag]

'That's not saying anyone into it are going to escalate into something else'

I did say it doesn't necessarily lead on from one to the other, but 'serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences' isn't rubbish at all, I didn't say they had to be BDSM fantasies, they can involve children, young women, hoovers, the subjects are as varied as the people themselves.

I've tried not to be offensive in what I've said, if you take my opinion as narrow mindedness I can live with that. It just means I think one thing is more probable than another.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Zigzag, this stuff about fantasies escalating to actual assault it bullshit. Everyone has fantasies, not all of them sexual. People who enjoy sex do not invariably escalate to rape (rape is not about sex and never has been, anyway).

As to 'experiencing non'wierdness' I didn't grow up in a satanic dungeon. I did grow up in a suburb and therefore have direct experience of wilful ignorance and self-righteous conformism, and those are the things that I despise in 'mundanes' not necessarily their actual sexual preference/taste in music/dress sense.

[AgentZigzag]

Saying people who commit violent sexual assaults escalate from fantasies SGB, isn't saying people who have fantasies will go on to offend.

If you look at the background of men who rape and kill children and how they got to that point, fantasies and violent pornography figure largely in it.

In some peoples minds, the two can be mixed up so they think fantasies inevitably lead on to offending. You've just got it mixed up yourself SGB, trying to make out that's what I was saying. I've tried to be careful to separate the two and say it was the reason some think BDSM is a dodgy practice, rather than it's what I personally think.

And I was joking about the non-weirds, no need to feel you should justify yourself.

[SolidGoldBrass]

More people escalate to hideous violence after getting involved with hardcore religion. Stigmatizing BDSM as 'full of wierdos' and 'violent pornography' as the root cause of actual sexual assault is not only wrong but dangerous. The current business about internet censorship is not remotely about 'protecting children'. it's about the government taking control of the internet. Child abuse images are just a convenient justification and an easy way to make the non-thinking majority accept a serious and dangerous restriction of their freedom - object to state censorship for dubious purposes and with no justification and you must be a child abuser or a terrorist...