To ask your views on bdsm relationships

[McNewPants2013]

I have been reading a lot of books about this and have came to a conclusion that with a trusting relationship it can work.

So what is your view.

[SolidGoldBrass]

More people escalate to hideous violence after getting involved with hardcore religion. Stigmatizing BDSM as 'full of wierdos' and 'violent pornography' as the root cause of actual sexual assault is not only wrong but dangerous. The current business about internet censorship is not remotely about 'protecting children'. it's about the government taking control of the internet. Child abuse images are just a convenient justification and an easy way to make the non-thinking majority accept a serious and dangerous restriction of their freedom - object to state censorship for dubious purposes and with no justification and you must be a child abuser or a terrorist...

[AgentZigzag]

Saying people who commit violent sexual assaults escalate from fantasies SGB, isn't saying people who have fantasies will go on to offend.

If you look at the background of men who rape and kill children and how they got to that point, fantasies and violent pornography figure largely in it.

In some peoples minds, the two can be mixed up so they think fantasies inevitably lead on to offending. You've just got it mixed up yourself SGB, trying to make out that's what I was saying. I've tried to be careful to separate the two and say it was the reason some think BDSM is a dodgy practice, rather than it's what I personally think.

And I was joking about the non-weirds, no need to feel you should justify yourself.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Zigzag, this stuff about fantasies escalating to actual assault it bullshit. Everyone has fantasies, not all of them sexual. People who enjoy sex do not invariably escalate to rape (rape is not about sex and never has been, anyway).

As to 'experiencing non'wierdness' I didn't grow up in a satanic dungeon. I did grow up in a suburb and therefore have direct experience of wilful ignorance and self-righteous conformism, and those are the things that I despise in 'mundanes' not necessarily their actual sexual preference/taste in music/dress sense.

[AgentZigzag]

'That's not saying anyone into it are going to escalate into something else'

I did say it doesn't necessarily lead on from one to the other, but 'serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences' isn't rubbish at all, I didn't say they had to be BDSM fantasies, they can involve children, young women, hoovers, the subjects are as varied as the people themselves.

I've tried not to be offensive in what I've said, if you take my opinion as narrow mindedness I can live with that. It just means I think one thing is more probable than another.

[nickymanchester]

AgentZigzag I'm not condemning anyone who's into it

Oh yes you are. What did you post just a bit earlier?

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction

I really do think you are incredibly narrow minded in saying the above.

So, the only reason that I like to be tied up occasionally by my DH and do other things is that I MUST have had something distressing/traumatic happen to me in the past?

To me, you sound as though you are saying that I am in some way damaged by my past and that is the only reason for enjoying these things.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I had a really great childhood and a great time as a teenager and in my 20s as well.


serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences

This really is a load of rubbish. Are you seriously trying to suggest that sexual assaults usually happen because the attacker had previously spanked his partner on the bum a couple of times or done something similar?

[McNewPants2013]

Agent, you don't have to. but have you ever had a sexual fantasy you would like to act on, but there is something stopping that

What I have learnt after some poster kindly PM on what sites to go on is that bdsm is about acting out a fantasy and the Dom is there to be able to do that.

I have a lot better understanding on BDSM relationships.

It does sound quite erotic and reading true life isnt the same as books, but for my relationship it just wouldn't work.

[AgentZigzag]

But you have equally strong opinions of non-weirds SGB.

How are those valid opinions if you've never experienced non-wierdness yourself



I'm not condemning anyone who's into it, like you've said, anyone can be abusive at any time.

But as I said before, the link of violence with sex can be a pattern played out by people who commit hideous crimes. That's not saying anyone into it are going to escalate into something else, but as serious violent sexual assaults are usually an escalation of behaviour from benign fantasies played out in private onto more and more public/serious offences, the two aren't completely unconnected.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Zigzag, that's a bit like saying that if people are not heterosexual, there must be something wrong with them. For people who are generally mentally healthy, an interest in BDSM is not that different from an interest in horror films/rollercoasters/extreme sport. It is, or can be, about challenging your body or your mind in a safe, controlled way. And there is a really big range of behaviours and activities that could be considered BDSM-related but which are fun, safe and quite widely enjolyed. Even the wussiest, most screamingly heteronormative sex manuals might suggest dressing up for sex, for example, or blindfolding one partner so as to increase their awareness of their other four senses.

[AgentZigzag]

I should give sexual violence a go before I make up my mind about it nicky.

Err, no ta.

I have opinions on all sorts of things without having any direct experience of them, as I'm sure you do.

[nickymanchester]

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction

Well, I've got no distressing/traumatic issues at all with my past and I've certainly got no problem with my DH spanking me from time to time - quite the opposite, in fact.

You and your partner should perhaps learn how to do it well - spanking for example - and give it a go before condemning it or, at least, accept that it is wrong to think that just because something isn't a turn on for you that there must be something wrong with people who do find it a turn on.

As was said by another MNetter on a different thread - YKINMK Your kink isn't my kink

[McNewPants2013]

I have to say yes he has, and I haven't had a problem with it.

[AgentZigzag]

'But unfortunately there is no social/cultural/subcultural group of people which is totally free of abusers.'

But because the act is one of violence which we are intolerant (as such) of it in this society, in a lot of people's minds the illegal and legal are not easy things to tease apart.

If you believe the reason a person who got to the point of getting off on violence is rooted in their past, that something distressing/traumatic happened to influence them in that direction, then surely as a group of people they're going to be more likely to have different ethical/moral values to the norm.

And that can be worrying to some because we like things to be predictable, if someone's singing from a different hymn sheet then what else are they capable of doing?

[nickymanchester]

As LEMisdisappointed said above

I'm not into role play but i admit that feeling of vulnerability is intoxicating. My fantasies are extreme, our reality is tame and loving.

and I can totally go along with the rest of her post.

Outside of the bedroom I am, I will admit, rather bossy. But there's nothing I like better than being forcibly tied to the bed and having naughty things done to me.

Or being spanked and then having my DH ... TMI, I'll stop there.

This works for me on a number of different levels, both physically and pscychologically.

Although, as AnonymousKinkyCoward said right at the start of this thread, this is all just part of a game we play sometimes in the bedroom when we are both in the mood - not a full time lifestyle thing.

There is a wide spectrum of bdsm that people can be on, even without identifying as being such - or perhaps that should be spectra? There are a number of different, albeit related, activities involved here.

For example, somebody who really likes being tied to the bed and being taken advantage of may get absolutely nothing out of physical pain. So don't always assume that everybody on the bdsm spectrum - god, that makes it sound like a disease or something - is into everything, as they very definitely are not.

I would suggest that an absolutely tiny number of people are into a lifestyle bdsm thing but a very large number of people do find aspects of bdsm exciting.

For example, has your partner ever held your wrists above your head, pinning you to the bed while having sex - or have you done it to him? Or has he ever given you a playful spank on the bum?

These are bdsm activities - these are all very mild bdsm things to do.

[McNewPants2013]

I am in no fear of being abused by my husband. ( I hope any way)

I think after starting this thread I understand that not every relationship is the same.

[SolidGoldBrass]

McNewPants I think your problem is that the fiction you have been reading is fairly crap. As to the example you've just given: yes it's rape if the dom doesn't stop when asked to. However, one of the reasons people who are into BDSM use safewords is that, for some participants, the fantasy/roleplay of saying no while meaning yes is part of the fun, so the safeword is something like 'Red' or 'Sugarlumps' so it's a clear indication that the game is over.

But unfortunately there is no social/cultural/subcultural group of people which is totally free of abusers. Being into BDSM and aware of good negotiating practice won't completely guarantee you are safe from abuse. Avoiding BDSM because it's weird shit done by sickoes won't guarantee you are safe from abuse either.

[AgentZigzag]

I reckon that's a really good example of exactly what I'm saying.

Does it matter if you can't tell because it's a private situation between two people?

It goes a long way to explaining the excuses a lot of people come up with as to how rape isn't rape, someone can always argue it was something else because the act isn't a tangible entity you can look at objectively.

To the man it wasn't rape but to the woman it was.

[McNewPants2013]

I am going for an extreme example.

We all know that once a person says stop to sex if another person continues in normally cases it would be rape, but if a sub says stop then the Dom don't it isn't rape. Because it could be the game is getting to much as she says stop but wants it to continue. However if she uses the safe word then he stops that the right thing however if he doesn't then it would be rape.

Is that the correct way to think

[AgentZigzag]

But whether it's legal or illegal depends on one persons private thoughts, which are impossible to measure.

Outward consent and it's a private sexual act, lack of obvious consent and it's abuse.

[McNewPants2013]

So taking my example if the patient refused to have the procedure done, then it would be assault and an abuse of power.

[McNewPants2013]

I don't think it should be illegal. I suspect that in a bdsm relationship things can turn abusive and when that happens the relationship should stop immediately.

I think that why safe words are important in this relationship. Because if it something that the sun don't want and she uses the safe word it goes from a bdsm relationship to one that is abusive.

[AgentZigzag]

Setting a dislocated shoulder is a violent event, where both people have to submit to the procedure.

It's only viewed as necessary violence because you can see the obvious result, but not every procedure is as black and white.

It just comes down to how we've constructed different acts of violence.

Some are legal and you could define as necessary, others aren't, but the boundaries are always shifting over time, and if they can be shifted, what makes one boundary right over another one?

It's acceptable to forcibly sterilise women in China some some societies now, and in the past in WWII, but we've drawn the boundary that it's not OK to violate someone in such a way. Thank. Fuck.

BDSM isn't illegal (in most cases), and why it's not (not that I think it should be or anything) is interesting.

[McNewPants2013]

In the medical world, if someone has a dislocated sholder that needs resetting. It may be painful to reset but then the healing can begin and the patient then can live a life without pain.

[McNewPants2013]

The books I read is normally a women who isn't very confident in sex and perhaps doesn't deserve to have sex.

Normally the subs are in control of every thing and this is one part of her life that she has no control over.

The Dom kind of gets what the sub needs and will push past what she thinks she needs.

I don't get why the need to use things like floggers and whips, but that because if you loved someone why would you want to hurt that person.

[AgentZigzag]

Most people are still encouraged to trust them without question, which is helpful if you're having a painful procedure, but (same as police) they're fallible, and that's frightening, so not many people tend to question them (selective ignorance is bliss).

It takes real balls to do that, bloody good for you LEM.

I know from being in hospital myself, that it only takes a day or two to be institutionalised by their routines, you very easily start submitting yourself to the dehumanisation process, which makes it much easier for them to see you in terms of stats/research they've read/what they've been taught/tradition.

Although saying these things, I've always found any times I've had in hospital/doctors to have left me with huge admiration for the fantastic people who work there (probably because I've wholeheartedly submitted and left my dignity at the door )

[LEMisdisappointed]

I get that Agent, my mum has a pituitary tumour. It is benign and she has had it for the best part of 50 years. She has already had to have her adrenal cortex (or medulla, i cant remember) removed as that was the treatment back when she was diagnosed all those years ago. With recent developments in medical physics etc, they wanted her to have something called a "gamma knife" to shrink/remove the tumour. I have a bioscience background so questioned the doctors on the need for this to happen - as in, what would the benefits be and risks. IMO there wasn't any benefits as there would be no change in my mums condition, her adrenals are gone so she will still need steroid replacement therapy, there would be no change to her treatment regieme and there was no significant risk of future malignancy. The doctors faces were a picture when i said, "you know what, i really don't think this is a good idea" They had to agree that the benefits would be minimal and im buggered if my mother was going to be a guinea pig for their new toy and told them as such. Had i not been there she would have had agreed to highly invasive treatment she didn't need.