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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to make myself believe in god?

999 replies

HopHopHopSkip · 25/07/2013 22:55

I have always been very logical and so despite going to a Christian primary school, having a very religious mum(though not in a pushy way) and reading the bible when I was younger(the story version Grin I was a bit of a book worm) I have never really got my head around how god could be possible.

But I really wish I had the extra "something" that some people seem to find by believing in god. I'm probably not making much sense, but I wish I could get myself to feel like there's somebody watching out, that there's something after death, that everything happens for what'd ultimately a good reason/what's meant to be so on.

AIBU to try going to church for a bit even though I don't believe in god? Or am I just being silly, is it something you can't 'make' yourself feel?

OP posts:
WhenSheWasBadSheWasHopeful · 26/07/2013 18:19

littlespork that first link is hilarious. I've only listened to the first 10 minutes or so. Will listen to some more while soaking in the bath later

LittleSporksBigSpork · 26/07/2013 18:42

Since you've brought it up Caster, it's best not to quote scripture at me, my grandfather and three of my uncles are ministers. As a child, I read it cover to cover several times, went to church 3 times a week, and as a teen was in the church nursery and running Sunday school lessons. I've studied it for comfort and I've studied it academically in multiple languages. I spent nights crying and praying over it from the age of 12, want and time I have not lacked nor effort and knocking, I was desperate for it to work just like it did for my family. Desire doesn't make anything true though. To quote a minister - fire burns, whether we believe it or not. Quoting the Bible doesn't make anything truth anymore than quoting the Iliad or any book related to any other God - all of the hundreds have texts, some just pick one as real and the other as stories. Circular logic doesn't work.

Much like Sweeney, reading it cover to cover was it's downfall for me. As was studying the history of the church - where the European tradition took over and forcefully replaced the original African one where Christianity first took hold (which didn't have any divinity element to Moshiah, and neither do any of the Jewish prophesies - as is covered in the Hollow Inheritance ), where it purposefully chose translations that don't make any sense in Hebrew and aren't used in other places in scripture for the same word to create prophesies never there, and the complete ignoring by the Christian church that the Jewish texts were never meant to be taken stand-alone, Jewish written text only makes sense with the oral tradition (hence why the manner of slaughter and circumcision only say in the text "as you have been taught" where the taught in never in the text).

I studied it for years, but really in the end, no amount of study or prayer or church made up for the bitter taste of thinking about a deity who would create people knowing most (Christians having never been a global majority) would go through eternity in hellfire - even if there was one, why would I want to worship that? I even tried Judaism with it's more universal message and lack of hellfire - seemed a natural jump at the time - spent years following Judaism as a Noachide, until I read the Mishnah Torah Melachim uMilchamot which showed things were not as equal or sweet as the many who are pushing the Noachide philosophy would have people believe (no hellfire, just not equal on Earth) - it broke me for a few weeks after I read it, I felt so cheated and deceived again, but that's what happens when you don't read all the texts, and why so many are pushed not to, makes very good control if you don't know what's in it or it's history.

The more I studied and seeked answers, the farther I've gotten from revelation faiths, the less I even wanted to worship deities like that - that would treat their creation in that manner, even when I really wanted and sought those answers and those comforts and felt cheated as if the answers had been ripped from me, on the bigger stage, it's just another created system that's - regardless of what is in Abrahamic texts - has been used to support a system of power and status that is extortionate and harmful to most people around the world. And I don't think any deity would want a system like that.

Caster8 · 26/07/2013 18:52

ok, I wont mention scripture to you.

But I stand by what I have said, that if anyone carries on seeking God they will find Him. Now, that may not be until a few months or minutes before a person dies.

themaltesefalcon · 26/07/2013 18:57

I have faith and it wanes and waxes.

I don't believe we waft round playing harps, but I don't believe we are just extinguished.

It is immensely comforting to think I'll see my dead again.

I think God is all-loving and helps anyone with an open heart and mind to find Him.

Why not wander into a C of E church and sit in a back pew? They are usually lovely and won't intrude if you just want to listen and feel.

LittleSporksBigSpork · 26/07/2013 19:20

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHopeful - It is very good

Caster - You can stand by it, and I stand by that it comes across as a very cruel deity who would act like that. Ignoring wanting cries of people desperate to know him and sending the vast majority of his creation to eternal fires for following a world he created that does not reveal him with a book that he allowed men to purposefully wrongly translate in the main conversion languages to keep the power and status for themselves. I would not want to worship such a thing even if true and nor would many others. I don't see why it's quotes should taken any more than the other religions that I have now posted twice now, why is it more true than the Iliad (a book about Gods written by a believer).

I can quote from many books about Universal divinity or in the need for revolution to overthrow the system of power and status that includes organized religions in order for real equality and compassion to work, but I wouldn't expect anyone to just accept any quotes as things to live by on their own or tell them they will get the answers on their death beds. It would be silly, nothing works that way.

claig · 26/07/2013 19:27

LittleSporks, have you looked at the Christian Gnostics?

claig · 26/07/2013 19:29

Then there are also the Neo-Platonists like Plotinus who opposed the Gnostics. Some very deep, good stuff there.

Allthingspretty · 26/07/2013 19:29

I class myself as spiritually curious and would luke to speak to people about my thoughts etc. YNBU OP

BettyandDon · 26/07/2013 19:38

I know what you mean OP. I have a few religious friends (American ones) and they seem to have an underlying calmness that their religion gives to them. It's as if they feel a greater force has 'got their back' which is helpful if you are in difficulty or crisis. I wish I had something similar but just wasn't raised to believe it.

headinhands · 26/07/2013 19:42

Zing, what are these 'communication and acts' that lead you to believe in a god, and what god is it?

ZingWidge · 26/07/2013 19:54

headin I don't want to discuss that on an AIBU thread, but I will pm you.

Caster8 · 26/07/2013 19:57

I hope it is all right for me to reply to you LittleSporks?

He does not ignore wanting cries of people desperate to know him. He may make them wait though for what reason I do not know.
I was making two steps forward, one step back, in getting to become a Christian. After about 15 years of that I got fed up. Told God I was fed up. Told Him it was up to Him when he took me. It was six months. I was very surprised. Why He didnt want me for 6 months I have no idea. One of the questions I plan to ask Him.
Maybe you have to wait a lot longer.

Vast majority of his creation. I think, from what I can make out that it will be 1/3. A huge number though.
We are given free will though. We have choices. I believe we are all spoken to, maybe many times throughout our lives. And no one will not have heard at all.

I often wonder too why the bible is made so complicated.

Never read the Iliad. But couldnt possibly take more notice of a human being's book, that a so called God inspired book.

raisah · 26/07/2013 19:57

Faith is a hugely personal thing and I don't think you need to attend an institution like a church/temple etc to prove you are a believer. There is a wonderful poster I have at home which says:
Your faith doesn't make you a good person, your behaviour does.'
That line sums up my personal beliefs, I know a lot of people who appear outwardly religious but their behaviour is just appalling.

You know what your essential beliefs are so why not research different faiths/churches that interest you to see if you can find a close match. You come across as quite an open minded person so you should question and question until you find something which stands up to your questioning.

UnexpectedStepmum · 26/07/2013 20:50

Lewis Carroll said once that he decided to behave as though he believed in God, and he ended up a Christian. It might work!

WMittens · 26/07/2013 21:02

God is not imaginery though

to explain it another way - you exist, but I haven't seen you either.

There is nothing to suggest that any god is anything other than imaginary; there is much to suggest (and in many cases, prove) that things that have been attributed to gods by the religious, have natural causes and origins, and much that has been attributed to gods could not have possibly happened in the way that they have been described.

You don't need to have seen AKAK to know she or he exists - the evidence is inputted in the MN forum database and displayed on your screen when that record is queried. Unless you're claiming God has printed the equivalent of "WTF?! lulz" on our existence, then yes, God is imaginary.

WMittens · 26/07/2013 21:08

PramelaAndherson
Betty. that is because Christ is the only way to God. Jesus himself said, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no man shall come to the Father but by me.'

Damn! So what did the Jews do before Jesus came along?

ThePowerof3 · 26/07/2013 21:11

I'll probably get slated for this but I don't believe yet take my DCs to church and they go to church school as from a very young age my DD1 has had a real fear of death (I don't know where it comes from) and a believe seems to help her and I would never want to take that away in fact I am so happy she finds comfort in it

headinhands · 26/07/2013 21:18

Caster8, you have as much reason to think the Iliad is supernaturally inspired as the Bible. How have you decided the Bible is divine and say, the Quran, isn't ?

WMittens · 26/07/2013 21:19

Latara
I envy them their certainty of faith but I just don't have that certainty.

I find it ironic when 'faith' and 'certainty' are used together - faith only exists where there is doubt or lack of certainty.

I don't have faith in the train I am sitting on; I don't need to have faith in it, it's there, I can physically feel it, see it, it's stopping me falling on to the tracks. It's also moving me over the surface of the earth at about 60mph.

I do have faith that it will get me to my destination on time - I have faith because there is an element of doubt that it will achieve it. It might be delayed for one of any number of reasons, there might be a mechanical failure, or someone may be taken ill and the train halted at the next station; from the tragic events in Spain in the last few days, it is possible the train will not even make it to the destination.

Faith is only required when there is a lack of certainty - I'm not saying this is a bad thing in any way, just clarifying.

expatinscotland · 26/07/2013 21:20

I would feel like I was feeding lies to my kids, Power. Is it really giving them comfort to mislead them like that? I can't do that to my kids.

They have asked, well, the elder one has. I tell them God is something that some people believe in, or Allah or Nirvana or multiple gods, etc. but no one knows if any of it is true and that I don't believe, personally, that any of it is.

The elder one has asked what happens to us after death, as her elder sister died last year, and I tell her no one knows but I believe that nothing happens, we just cease to exist. So she does often say that we only live one life so make the most of it and tries to.

ThePowerof3 · 26/07/2013 21:25

I don't see it like that expat, who am I to say its lies? Just because I struggle to believe doesn't mean I can discount it.

Splitheadgirl · 26/07/2013 21:36

St Thomas Aquinas said, in Summa Theologica, that there are three ways of knowing God. The first is through Creation....those beautiful, incredible acts of nature - animals, sunsets, mountain lakes and so on (you could really go on forever here).

The second is through God's actions in history - the allies being victorious in world wars, people rushing to help whenever disaster strikes (this one has a lot to do with human beings and how we respond).

The third, and highest way of knowing God, is to realise you DON'T know him!! Tamquam ignotum - to know God as the unknown.

When you understand that you cannot KNOW God - that He is uncomprehendable by human minds - but that He exists in all creation, then you are kind of starting to GET to know Him!!!!

Ruralninja · 26/07/2013 21:38

maybe rewind a bit & start with why you are so keen to believe

headinhands · 26/07/2013 21:39

Thepower, what about other things you would struggle to believe, like all other religions/alien visitations and so on, are you able to discount them? If so why? What's you're criteria for belief? Is it a case of 'if it seems nice and comforting I'll try to believe it',

headinhands · 26/07/2013 21:43

Split I'm sorry but that last paragraph just sounds like complete and utter nonsense. As for god in nature, where's the beauty in that African worm that eats your eye from the inside out? You have to be picky when viewing nature to see a god whose worthy of worshipping.

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