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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want to make myself believe in god?

999 replies

HopHopHopSkip · 25/07/2013 22:55

I have always been very logical and so despite going to a Christian primary school, having a very religious mum(though not in a pushy way) and reading the bible when I was younger(the story version Grin I was a bit of a book worm) I have never really got my head around how god could be possible.

But I really wish I had the extra "something" that some people seem to find by believing in god. I'm probably not making much sense, but I wish I could get myself to feel like there's somebody watching out, that there's something after death, that everything happens for what'd ultimately a good reason/what's meant to be so on.

AIBU to try going to church for a bit even though I don't believe in god? Or am I just being silly, is it something you can't 'make' yourself feel?

OP posts:
headinhands · 30/07/2013 14:46

Are you there? Can you help me? Can you guide me? I'm listening.' then something very different emerges.

What if you hear nothing? What if you do? How do you know it's not just your own mind?

claig · 30/07/2013 14:47

"How would you decide if a claim is factual/real?"

Logic, reason and thought - God's gifts to us to enable us to grasp through our limited consciousness, the vast limitless consciousness and love that is God.

2much2young · 30/07/2013 14:48

cargo style

cheap & cheerful infact quite a lot at SportsDirect

2much2young · 30/07/2013 14:48

Whoops! wrong thread Grin

atrcts · 30/07/2013 14:50

Headinhands - But you're saying how could I possible know better. You're saying I have to trust god and suspend my logic. The same logic he expected me to use to find him. So it's like 'question everything else but me'.

Well you are putting words in my mouth as I didn't say you have to suspend logic. The trouble with logic is one person's interpretation of logic is sometimes another person's interpretation of folly.

I said at 13:15 (to make it easier for you to check I am telling you the truth!): Not required to stop using your head at all, quite the opposite! Bible is full of recommendations for seeking out wisdom and pursuing knowledge.

worldgonecrazy · 30/07/2013 14:53

But if you start with faith itself, if you start by asking 'Are you there? Can you help me? Can you guide me? I'm listening.' then something very different emerges. Something so profoundly powerful and peaceful and strong and right that all the petty quarrels of all the organised religions in the world seem irrelevant.

But how can you say that those who are blowing each other up and killing/hurting in the name of religion haven't had that same experience, and been led to a different conclusion?

I have done the same thing (except for guidance because I'm a big believer in self-responsibility) and have come up with a different view of Divinity to the Christian one. So who is right? How come the Jehovah has fooled so many into thinking he is a caring just God when actually his religions have caused so much conflict in the world? Actually as I'm typing this, given his behaviour in the Old Testament, perhaps the world is exactly as Jehovah wants it, wars, hurting and hatred.

2much2young · 30/07/2013 14:54

hmm, yes but he doesn't seem like a very nice God all round does he? punishing us for "sins" when we are mere mortals. How can we ever achieve the moral code he puts out for us when we are inferior to him. Setting us up for a fall really.

and this thing about listening and something amazing happening? like what? no-one ever says what exactly, up thread someone was talking about witnessing a miracle (and consequently being open to God) and yet no mention of what this miracle was. No-one has anything "real" to say.

headinhands · 30/07/2013 14:55

A bit like pets then? I wouldn't expect my pets to worship me. Also, how illogical would it be to get two rabbits and put them in a huge run and then leave them to breed and get on with it. Imagine one of them is really vicious. Imagine I just ignore it. Imagine loads of them are ill. Imagine I don't take them to the vets. Imagine I hide myself from them. Imagine I made all the evidence suggest I didn't exist and then got worked up because they didn't believe I existed. Imagine I made their brains inferior to mine so they couldn't think as well as me and then got uppity when they didn't 'get it'. imagine other rabbits were saying 'but he came in rabbit form to die for you'. Imagine I said 'there's no evidence, there's also none for all the other rabbit religions'. I'm gonna have some weird dreams tonight!

claig · 30/07/2013 14:56

"hmm, yes but he doesn't seem like a very nice God all round does he? punishing us for "sins" when we are mere mortals. How can we ever achieve the moral code he puts out for us when we are inferior to him. Setting us up for a fall really."

I think the God of the Old Testament, the fire and brimstone God who has favourites and dishes out punishments is a different God to the God of the New Testament.

atrcts · 30/07/2013 14:56

The trouble is that we can all think of examples in our own lives where we thought we knew best and in hindsight found that we didn't.

Thats why we have the saying about the beauty of hindsight!

Some of my logic in the past have, with hindsight, been folly. For example:

  1. My Mum made me wear sensible shoes growing up, which I HATED! And my logic was that it would be fine for me to wear whatever I wanted (which was NOT sensible shoes by any stretch of the imagination!). Now that I am an adult and have beautifully formed feet, i am grateful for her "knowing best".
  1. I hated school and wanted to refuse to take my exams as I was sure I would only every do an artistic job. My parents made me go and take the exams 'just in case', and I am glad I did because later the artistic job didn't suit me and I needed my exam results for the medical job I then pursued for 18 years. Again, gratitude that my logic was overruled.

I wasn't asked to 'not think for myself', or to be a puppet on a string. I was encouraged to pursue my dreams but I was also disciplined to make sensible decisions even if at the time my logic was different. I was so mad at the time!!!!!! But now I see it completely differently.

It reminds me of that verse in the bible about "now [in this life] I see through a glass darkly, but then [later on, when I am with God] I will see clearly".

headinhands · 30/07/2013 14:59

Claig, talk me through the logical steps you used to decide that there is even a god and that your chosen religion is the right one and the others aren't.

2much2young · 30/07/2013 15:01

"I think the God of the Old Testament, the fire and brimstone God who has favourites and dishes out punishments is a different God to the God of the New Testament"

oh right so it's just a matter of picking and choosing the bits you like/dislike and making it fit with your way of life.

atrcts · 30/07/2013 15:01

Headinhands - Imagine I hide myself from them.

Jesus didn't hide, yet many disbelieved Him.

God didn't hide from Adam and Eve but they still ignored Him.

It isn't always the case that people will automatically trust in and rely upon God, even when the evidence is there.

The bible is evidence too. The scrolls are proven as accurate copies of the originals, the prophecies were 100% accurate and, as I said earlier, are provable in the secular world too. But so many people take the bible out of context and don't believe it to be true. Yet the evidence is there. A bit like not believing Jesus was God when they were rubbing shoulders with him.

headinhands · 30/07/2013 15:02

So you're saying that even though I don't understand it now, I should just follow it. How do I decide which religion to follow? How can I test the claims each religion makes?

atrcts · 30/07/2013 15:03

Headinhands - Imagine I made their brains inferior to mine so they couldn't think as well as me and then got uppity when they didn't 'get it'.

If your brain was equal to God you would surely have to be a God, and since there is only one God, that's not possible.

headinhands · 30/07/2013 15:06

the prophecies were 100% accurate and, as I said earlier, are provable in the secular world too.

So the scientific community accept the bible as the word of god do they?

What about the other rabbit religions. There you are in your rabbit run with 10/20/30 religions all saying they're the way to a god you don't even see any evidence for in the first place. What do you do?

claig · 30/07/2013 15:06

"and this thing about listening and something amazing happening? like what? no-one ever says what exactly, up thread someone was talking about witnessing a miracle (and consequently being open to God) and yet no mention of what this miracle was. No-one has anything "real" to say."

It's about a transformation, about the Holy Spirit entering you and changing you for the good and the better, so that through you the Holy Spirit will help others too.

It doesn't come easily and it won't happen to most. There are even monks and nuns and priests who have contemplated and meditated for years on it and who will never have been blessed by it, which is why some of them have committed evil acts even after a lifetime of search.

You can't click a finger and be transformed. You can''t stamp your feet and demand it. You can be as rich as a king, and you may not get it and it may instead enter the lowliest humblest shepherd in town.

For Christ said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. He said the meek shall inherit the earth and he said be like a child, for children are of the kingdom of heaven

?Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.?

Be humble, do not make demands, be open and filled with love and open your heart. Be not bitter if you do not hear the message, for it is by being selfless and unselfish and pure of thought that the Spirit will enter, for the Spirit is pure and like attracts like.

atrcts · 30/07/2013 15:10

Headinhands -So you're saying that even though I don't understand it now, I should just follow it.

I am not sure if this was directed at me, but am replying because it followed my post directly.

I am not saying you should blindly follow anything. You are clearly intelligent and have a questioning mind. So long as you remain genuine in your questioning you will learn further insights that will persuade you.

The bible says that if you ask God He will give you more knowledge (Seek and you shall find). He shows you more of Himself as time goes on, until you are convinced with the evidence before you.

How do I decide which religion to follow? How can I test the claims each religion makes?

Just have a little look at the prophecies that came true in the bible. Google them for yourself (staying away from religious sites to prove it to yourself) and you'll be amazed.

As I said before, the bible is the only book that supports not working your own way to God, but accepting His free gift to you. that makes it different from other religions. HE paid the price so YOU don't have to. You may have heard the story about the judge whose son is stood before him accused of a crime. The judge has to give him a fine to remain just, but he knows his son doesn't have the money and so pays the price for him out of his own pocket.

I suppose I would ask you what you are placing your trust in at the moment if it isn't God?

atrcts · 30/07/2013 15:11

So the scientific community accept the bible as the word of god do they?

Some do, other's don't. That's a bit like saying the medical community accept the bible do they? Well again, some do and some don't.

worldgonecrazy · 30/07/2013 15:12

claig do you know that the Jewish word for "camel" and "rope" are very similar.

It doesn't come easily and it won't happen to most. That comment actually supports everyone who has said that Jehovah is a spiteful, jealous, petulant despot.

Brodicea · 30/07/2013 15:12

I've started going to a Unitarian church - they're interested in all faiths and religions and see it as an individual search for meaning. I found the congregation had varying levels of faith, from the abstract (ie there's something, but not sure what) to the God-based (Jesus loves you etc). I really enjoy the openness of the sermons and lack of dogma, and it makes me feel connected to the mystery of the world and humanity without making me feel like I'm 'faking it'.

worldgonecrazy · 30/07/2013 15:14

My gods tell me to enjoy myself, to drink wine and to have lots of sex. I am extremely secure in the knowledge that my god is better than your god Wine

Brodicea · 30/07/2013 15:15

Oh and the unitarian sermons include not only Jewish and Muslim stories and wisdom, but also Plato and Marx. AND you get to sing hymns (none of which are too 'fire and brimstone')!

2much2young · 30/07/2013 15:18

"It doesn't come easily and it won't happen to most"

but why not?? why make it so hard for us to be filled with this wonderful love and to know we are loved unconditionally then?

claig · 30/07/2013 15:19

"claig do you know that the Jewish word for "camel" and "rope" are very similar."

No, I didn't know that