Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to make myself believe in god?

999 replies

HopHopHopSkip · 25/07/2013 22:55

I have always been very logical and so despite going to a Christian primary school, having a very religious mum(though not in a pushy way) and reading the bible when I was younger(the story version Grin I was a bit of a book worm) I have never really got my head around how god could be possible.

But I really wish I had the extra "something" that some people seem to find by believing in god. I'm probably not making much sense, but I wish I could get myself to feel like there's somebody watching out, that there's something after death, that everything happens for what'd ultimately a good reason/what's meant to be so on.

AIBU to try going to church for a bit even though I don't believe in god? Or am I just being silly, is it something you can't 'make' yourself feel?

OP posts:
Caster8 · 27/07/2013 16:15

I do know the bible was inspired by God.
But obviously I cant prove it.
It comes down to the age old debate about faith.
Faith is believing in something you cannot prove.

It is a fact to me.
You may not believe it, but that doesnt mean it isnt a fact. All be it a fact that cannot be proven at this moment in time.

WMittens · 27/07/2013 16:19

I do know the bible was inspired by God.
But obviously I cant prove it.

If you can't prove it then no, you don't know - you may suspect it, you may believe it but you don't know it.

It is a fact to me.

A fact is independent of any individual - it is irrefutable.

All be it a fact that cannot be proven at this moment in time.

If it can't be proven, then it is a hypothesis not a fact (or it's a logical paradox).

headinhands · 27/07/2013 16:56

Dione I don't think arguing about the cause and doing something about it are mutually exclusive.

I see suffering as part of life. Some is caused directly by others, some nature such as tsunamis or disease. The nature ones, well no one is to blame but science is learning to predict and prevent certain things. We're also making gains in understanding human behaviour and one hopes as this too progresses we may be able to lessen and limit the actions and effect of those that would hurt others.

claig · 27/07/2013 17:00

But what is a fact if an observer changes what is being observed a la quantum mechanics?

WMittens · 27/07/2013 17:15

claig

What?

GoshAnneGorilla · 27/07/2013 17:43

Dione - I think that is an excellent point.

madhairday · 27/07/2013 17:49

I really wish that was true hih, that we could learn to lessen the actions that hurt others. In some ways you could chart history in say the UK and say we have got more civilised, but then look at those at the bottom of the heap as it were, still starving, still vulnerable, still abused. There may be a thin veneer of civilisation but it's so thin it is cracking, I think. :( I do wish it were true that things were getting better, but looking round the world I do not think that is the case. I'm not sure an argument could be made for it getting worse, there is as much shit as there always was, but evolution doesn't seem to be making better people of us as a whole.

Why the suffering in nature - I think that the whole world is askew, it's off balance, not as it should be. There are fault lines across nature and across humanity. And this is because of people's choice to go against God - creation 'fell' as it were when mankind 'fell', in whatever way that is interpreted. There's a passage in Romans which says the whole of creation is groaning, in distress, waiting for things to be made right again. Suffering happens across the board because things are not how they are supposed to be.

I know, it's an old argument, but one that still resonates deeply with me in my own suffering.

atrcts · 27/07/2013 17:58

You mention wanting to FEEL like there is a God who watches over you.

The interesting thing is that our feelings come and go, and are not always a true reflection of the facts. For example, have you ever felt guilty about something that you really don't need to, but your feelings mess you about and try to tell you otherwise? Or maybe you feel afraid Of harmless things (thunder/spiders etc) when there is no factual reason for it, only your feelings telling you strongly to believe you need to feel the fear. People can overcome such fears with therapy, a 'reprogramming' of the feelings, a bringing the feelings into line with the facts.

Interestingly, believing is the same. You look at the facts first, and the feelings will sometimes follow. People (including myself) make a mistake to FEEL unloved by God when they encounter problems in life, because the FACT is that God tells us we won't have a perfect life and that He cares and sorrows with us. Suffering was never in his plan for us, but he gave us free will to chose good or bad, and with it come the consequences of that. Not too unlike children who push boundaries and need to learn consequences so they will not grow up too unruly!

If you look up the word 'believe' you will see it means to "trust in", and "rely upon" with "full assurance", even in the absence of proof. That's why it's called faith. We use the term in every day life when we describe everyday event such as trusting someone to give us a lift in the car because we have faith that they are true to the word they have given us.

Having faith in God is just like that. To believe, you are saying you are trusting in, and relying upon, God being who He says He is; with full assurance.

Someone once described it like calling out a doctor when you're ill. After the phone call, you hear the doorbell ring and there stands a man with a stethoscope and what looks like a doctor's bag, and shows you his ID badge, so you have an obvious choice. Will you trust he is who he says he is and let him in to treat you, or will you tell him you don't believe he can possibly be a doctor and send him away?

One most well known and yet most misunderstood verse in the bible is John 3 verse 16 where it says "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only son, so that whosoever BELIEVES on Him, should not perish but have eternal life". So in other words, whoever "trusts in" and "relies upon" God will spend eternity with Him. But there are many warnings about trusting in and relying upon anything else, because that will not be a true faith, even if your feelings FEEL different at the time (feelings, while having a place, also have a nasty habit of changing!).
So it is pointless trusting in your own "good works", or being baptised, or attending church, or leading a good life. All of these things might have their place but they don't have a place in what you actually put your faith IN. So the biggest question to ask yourself is what you are believing in; your 'self' or God.

A few years ago I was challenged to research the evidence FOR a belief in God, and was amazed to find so much evidence. I looked up the claim and then googled secular websites to see if the claim was validated by historians and records etc, and incredibly it was.
You mention your family who have a strong faith, but your journey needs to be your own, and it sounds like you have already started that journey with your opening question. A good website to get you started on doing your own research is this one:
Proof that God is real

The bottom line is, God said "if you seek Me you shall find Me" and HE will always give more new information to someone honestly wanting to know more about Him. Good luck in your journey.

DioneTheDiabolist · 27/07/2013 19:39

The thing is Hidden, in the cases I mentioned there isn't even an arguement about the cause or the solution.

WMittens · 27/07/2013 20:31

atrcts

A good website to get you started on doing your own research is this one:
Proof that God is real

That website is laughable. "God said God is real, so God must be real - it's the ultimate proof."

"ANTHROPOLOGY: The Bible claims that all humans are ?one blood? descended from one man and one woman (Acts 17:26; 1 Corinthians 15:45; Genesis 3:20). Some nineteenth-century biologists argued that different races descended from lower animals, but today genetics has verified that there is only one human race. "

What does that even mean? Yes, homo sapiens is extant, but homo erectus, homo habilis and homo neanderthalensis are extinct.

"BIOLOGY: The Bible claims that God created animals ?after their kind.? Nineteenth-century biologists argued that animals evolved from other, very different animals, but today biology confirms that creatures reproduce within their own kind."

This statement is flawed and in no way links evolution and reproduction - any offspring is the same species as its parents; there was no homo erectus couple that gave birth to a homo sapiens child, even though homo sapiens evolved from homo erectus.

atrcts · 27/07/2013 21:20

WMittens Obviously you're entitled to your opinion (just like everyone else that may disagree with you), but I am confused about your quote because I didn't see anywhere on the website I gave that said (as you've quoted): "God said God is real, so God must be real - it's the ultimate proof."

I was referring to the links you could click to explore the following seven topics, which I found incredibly reliable when I researched them.

Proof of the bible:

  1. God?s Character
  2. Claims of Divine Authorship
  3. Unity of the Bible
  4. Fulfilled Prophecy
  5. Scientific Accuracy
  6. Archaeological Finds
  7. Life-Changing Power

You seem to have diverted the thread away from the original post, and towards your own agenda of evolution vs creation, but I would have thought it would be more reasonable to start your own threat about that rather than post off-topic? Wink

Though I would like to point out it's been done to death already....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/1719381-Young-Earth-Creationists and
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/1740513-YEC-2

WMittens · 27/07/2013 21:26

but I am confused about your quote because I didn't see anywhere on the website I gave that said (as you've quoted)

I didn't quote, I paraphrased.

I was referring to the links you could click to explore the following seven topics, which I found incredibly reliable when I researched them.

Yes I read some of them, the excerpts I copied came from 'Scientific Accuracy'. I'd be interested to see your research, because as per my points above, it is seriously flawed in its logic. 'Archaelogical Finds' is another one with some amazing leaps of faith (pun sort of intended).

You seem to have diverted the thread away from the original post, and towards your own agenda of evolution vs creation

You posted the link to the website, I just copied and pasted from that link.

Gruntfuttock · 27/07/2013 21:26

A quote:- Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Caster8 · 27/07/2013 21:36

God can prevent evil if He chooses to. He allows us free will, and does not always intervene. He sometimes needs to be told about it too. That does not make him malevolent, as I understand the word.

Evil does not come from God.

WMittens · 27/07/2013 21:43

God can prevent evil if He chooses to. He allows us free will, and does not always intervene.

Not according to the Bible:

"Nothing happens apart from God's will"

He sometimes needs to be told about it too.

Then he is not omniscient, as claimed in the Bible:

"God knows a man's heart"

"God searches the heart and understands all the intent of the thoughts"

"God sees the things done in secret."

"There is no creature hidden from God's sight."

"God knows all our needs."

"For he looks to the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens."

DioneTheDiabolist · 27/07/2013 21:43

Wmittens, I understand non-belief, but why do you feel the need or desire to laugh at those of people who believe differently to you?

Caster8 · 27/07/2013 21:52

Will look those up. To speed things up my end, do you have bible references handy for those, or were they all in those links you posted earlier. Thanks. You dont have to do that if you dont want to.

Caster8 · 27/07/2013 21:53

I have actually said that I dont think He is omniscient. I gave a post about that earlier.

WMittens · 27/07/2013 21:59

Dione

why do you feel the need or desire to laugh at those of people who believe differently to you?

I'm not laughing at anyone.

I like expanding my knowledge. I will always challenge things I believe to be false and question things I don't know to be true - that goes for pretty much any subject. I also question things I may have previously held to be true, but new evidence suggests something else. This way, others' responses can provide me with new information or new avenues to research and explore, increasing my knowledge.

With such massive archives of information at our fingertips (with a pinch of salt) and numerous fora for discussion, it makes learning easy and enjoyable. I wish I'd had the same interest when I was a child.

claig · 27/07/2013 22:06

What is reality?

Do you create your own reality? Do you effect the physical reality of the world through your thought? And if that is true what does that say for prayer?

The Quantum Mechanics Observer Effect

Caster8 · 27/07/2013 22:07

Thanks WMittens. My homework for tomorrow !

claig · 27/07/2013 22:12

affect, not effect, that was imperfect

WMittens · 27/07/2013 22:22

claig

I was considering correcting you on 'effect' but in one meaning it makes sense in this context (and so both 'affect' and 'effect' make sense), as mentioned in the video.

headinhands · 27/07/2013 22:50

I think were getting better. I think we're improving. Look how far we've come with just the issue of gay rights in just my lifetime of 40 years. I suppose that's a fundamental difference between us then, I feel more optimistic about humanity/society. We have a long way to go yes but we're still a young species.

Swipe left for the next trending thread