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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

OMG. Are these 'penalty notices' for taking children out of school in term time legally enforceable?

767 replies

Utterlyastoundedmum · 22/07/2013 14:53

Not interested in having a debate about whether it is 'right' to take a child out of schol, in term time for holidays etc. just wanting to know whether they can be enforced from a legal perspective.

I have just read the latest school newsletter and am to be honest, very annoyed indeed to find that as of September the school are changing its policy on authorising absences. Until now it's always been on a case by case basis but now they are saying no absence will be authorised whatsoever no matter what, except for one day for weddings ( with proof!)

The penalty is £60 or £120.

Not very fair on any parents such as myself who booked a holiday for a week in October as we really CANNOT get away in half term this year.

I will not be paying unless this is legally enforcible!!

OP posts:
frogwatcher42 · 22/07/2013 23:15

My dc have done nothing but bake bread, garden, play sports etc for days. My year 6 has done nothing since sats that is of any use educationally so that is several weeks of very little education (in fact the class has openly been moaning about being bored and missing proper lessons!).

If education is so important that term time holidays are banned, then the schools need to educate each day - not give up on the dc once they have their excellent sats results, or as end of term draws near and children and teachers are knackered.

StarlightMcKenzie · 22/07/2013 23:16

Audrina, I don't think it is covered by the DDA though, because I wouldn't be taking ds out (Well I would but his school will be fine), it is his two siblings I'll be taking out so that we can go on holiday as a family.

It's the school his siblings go to that is likely to object. They won't give a toss about a sibling of theirs that they have never met.

Whippetwarmer · 22/07/2013 23:27

Not sure if they would go that far if its only for a week or so. The example my friend gave me was that for years her younger dsis was HE by their dm 2 days a week, but in school the other 3 days. The school hated it, and the lea were involved, but essentially there was nothing that could be done as the child was receiving a good education whilst not in school.

I think the lea are trying to scare everyone into complying but I think it would be definitely worth arguing the toss with them.

AudrinaAdare · 23/07/2013 00:02

Oh I see, sorry Starlight. Your DD1 is a Young Carer though and might be qualify under respite? Guidelines rather than legislation though I think Sad

ICantFindAFreeNickName · 23/07/2013 00:17

One effect that we have noticed in our school, is that parents are saying kids are sick and then the kids get upset & confused when they slip up and talk about their holidays. Its not fair on the children and it also teaches them that their parents think its OK to lie to school.

Please don't knock schools for this clampdown - its the government setting the rules and taking away all the discretion. We will have to spend hours filling in forms for the lea for all the unauthorised absence.

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/07/2013 00:24

I do knock the schools. There are ways to make this alright but schools can be so inflexible and prefer the 'outreach' model of partnership with parents to true partnership where parents are seen as equal and significant player in their child's education.

How about the parents do the paperwork!?

How about creative/modern use of code B?

How about the PTA fund and maintain an admin position for dealing with this and making it possible?

MidniteScribbler · 23/07/2013 04:58

I think there needs to be a level of discretion for schools. Parents should be able to approach the school, provide a valid justification for why they need to be absent during term time, and what they are going to do to meet the child's educational needs during that time. But parents also should consider the school and what is going on at the time. There are certain key times that really are very important for the child to be in school so as not to miss out on vital learning or exams and parents who are open and flexible to working around that are much more likely to have the absence authorised.

Sadly, there are some parents who just take it too far, and it's why the schools are now penalising everyone. We have a big show here, every year, which runs for ten days. Students get two school days off (one is a legislated public holiday, the other a curriculum day for staff) during that time, plus weekends. So during the ten days they get 6 non school days that they could go. But inevitably, every year, we get people pulling their kids out on other days to go because they "don't like crowds". The show is exactly the same every year - dog show, horse show, cow show, sideshow alley, showbags and lots of junk food. There really is no reason for a child to need to miss another day of school that week.

Sensible, justifiable and legitimate reasons for taking children out of school are fine. There are many however that are not and parents who do it constantly are jeopardising their child's education.

babyhammock · 23/07/2013 05:45

I got fined £60 a few weeks ago for taking my 4 year old out of reception to go to Florida for 2 weeks. I wrote a justification to the school namely that it was the holiday of a life time, they know I'm a lone parent, and they know that we escaped a very domestically abusive situation which has been extremely traumatic with the courts etc. They still said no as they pretty much have a blanket ban already.

Then our local LEA who rarely actually fine, decided to this time!

However the holiday was great and DS's handwriting went from OK to absolutely amazing and his reading improved no end as we did far more of it while we were away than he would have done in school... well worth the £60 fine but it really pissed me off at the time.

Ledkr · 23/07/2013 06:37

When dh left us, going on holiday with the dc was one way of reassuring them we,d still be ok.
With four of them and one income it would have been pretty impossible to do in school hols.
I rem dr sitting on a beach with them one evening as we talked through how we all felt and what the future would be like.
I'd have paid a fine to have that moment.

floatyjosmum · 23/07/2013 06:44

Only read as far as page 3 so not sure if its been mentioned.

Some local authorities are already doing this and one eat me on their guidance says its if they miss 10 school sessions which is 5 days.

For proof of a wedding we were asked for a copy of the invitation but this was for 1 day off. In the end we picked him up late am and it didn't matter!!

floatyjosmum · 23/07/2013 06:46

One near me not eat!

Babyhammock - at 4 she doesn't need to be at school so there shouldn't be a fine

babyhammock · 23/07/2013 06:50

Exactly Ledkr, sometimes holidays are just completely priceless. Our holiday certainly went a long way to healing the damage.

If anything its made me more inclined to go away again in term time, obviously during a 'quiet' time in school and I know the curriculum so I'll make sure he doesn't miss stuff.

All that's going to happen is parents will either lie about being sick or just budget the fine into the holiday. The children who truant will still do so.

babyhammock · 23/07/2013 06:53

Floatyjosmum that's exactly what I thought as he's not even legal school age! But apparently as soon as you sign them up for full time education you have to abide by the rules. He's not 4 till August! Just ridiculous :(

babyhammock · 23/07/2013 06:57

Sorry 5 till August..doh!

yabyum · 23/07/2013 06:58

apparently as soon as you sign them up for full time education you have to abide by the rules

Only on MN.

babyhammock · 23/07/2013 07:01

Yabyum given his age! He's still 4 so not even legal school age. That was the point I was making so please try not to take it out of context

floatyjosmum · 23/07/2013 07:06

I would argue it with them and speak to an ewo. I work with them and I'm aware of a family with 2 children where there were issues with attendance (less than 40%) but they couldn't do anything in relation to the younger one as they wasn't 5.

It also means that if children stay at day nurseries because its easier for working parents etc then they can go on holiday when they want whereas if you put them in school nursery or reception class you can't.

Katnisscupcake · 23/07/2013 07:12

DD starts school in September and we are planning to take her on holiday in June next year. Her 5th birthday coincides with my 40th and it will be our first ever holiday as a family.

We're not even going somewhere amazing, but I would be concerned about how much she will miss out on. But then I figure that it's only 6 weeks before the end of her Reception year. So hopefully not too much... I am prepared to pay the fine if I have to, but I guess it depends. If we decide to do a long weekend and do Friday to Monday, I guess I could call in sick for her, but then she's bound to tell them when she gets back that she's been away, even if we keep it a secret from her beforehand. So I guess I'd be better off being honest and up front.

But then if the fine is the same for taking one days holiday as it is for taking a week, we might aswell take the week!!

But I am prepared to pay the fine, absolutely. But the holiday companies need to sort out their prices...

SoupDragon · 23/07/2013 07:13

The thing is, obviously everyone on MN is responsible and takes their children on terribly educational holidays and they only do it in term time once in a sky blue pink moon. However, there has to be a blanket rule to cover the average parent who does it purely for the money aspect and doesn't give a stuff about education.

You have never had the right to take your child out of school in term time. The 10 days has always been discretionary and a threshold rather than a right.

IOnlyNameChangeInACrisis · 23/07/2013 07:24

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SoupDragon · 23/07/2013 07:28

How dare the Dept of Education decided whether I can take my children out of school or not

They have always been able to.

TheHumancatapult · 23/07/2013 07:29

I phoned Educatijn welfare to inform taking my son on holiday . Got a long lecture etc and that I should not be going in term time Educatijn important . I then when got word in edge ways said well LEA can't find a school place for him anyway so he have no school whole September so don't you think that's a bigger issue ( to complex ms to bright for ss ) LEA will carry in negoating after summer holidays but reckon be October half term

Dd school agreed to her coming out due yo circumstances

IOnlyNameChangeInACrisis · 23/07/2013 07:29

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IOnlyNameChangeInACrisis · 23/07/2013 07:31

This reply has been deleted

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PrettyPaperweight · 23/07/2013 07:43

The whole debate bewilders me, tbh!

As parents, we are legally obliged to provide our DCs with an education. We can either do that ourselves, or, enter into a contract with one of the many education providers available - some of which are provided by the state, others independent.

If we enter into a contract, we agree to abide by its terms. I really don't understand the expectation that we can ignore the terms that don't suit us?