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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think parents should teach their children how to behave round dogs

999 replies

Xihha · 19/07/2013 21:27

There have been a few posts lately about people needing to control their dogs more (and I agree, if you cant control our dog and clean up after it then you shouldn't have a dog imo), but is it unreasonable to expect parents to teach children to be a bit more careful round dogs?

Whilst walking my dog (on his lead) a child who looked about 10 ran up and stuck his head in my dogs face to make a fuss of him whilst i was picking up doggys poo, without checking if it was ok, there have been other times kids have just walked up and started pulling doggy around, this sort of thing happens a lot, especially in the summer when there are more kids out playing and the parents rarely say anything about it.

It's not really an issue with my great soppy lump of a dog because he loves kids and will put up with anything for a bit of fuss but shouldn't these kids know that you should check with the owners before approaching strange dogs and that even a nice dog can get pissed of if you start pulling it around?

OP posts:
LackingEnergy · 25/07/2013 11:45

How willing are you to let a strange dog owner be responsible for your child?

If I'm half way around a football pitch leading to one of the exits onto a busy main road and you are at the other end. Am I supposed to realise that your child has unbeknown to you started running towards me? I won't see him unless I turn around, which I might if he was talking ect, as I'm walking towards the exit.

Is it my job to wait at the exit to ensure he doesn't follow me out of the park and across a busy main road?

Is it my job to shout the length of a football pitch to draw your attention to your child and then wait for you to collect him?

Do I send him back to you after I've made you aware?

What if he won't go back, I don't have all day to wait for you and your time is certainly no more important than mine.

I have no responsibility towards your child but I'd feel morally obligated to waste my time ensuring that he didn't leave the park while you got your shit together. And guess what he may have stoked my dogs even after being told not to so he may smell a bit of boy dog wee

curlew · 25/07/2013 12:11

"Is it my job to wait at the exit to ensure he doesn't follow me out of the park and across a busy main road?"

Of course not. Unless you are responsible for shutting the gates. In which case, yes you would be. I would be too, for not hanging onto my child. But you would be, because the gates are your responsibility.

LackingEnergy · 25/07/2013 12:30

Of course not. Unless you are responsible for shutting the gates. In which case, yes you would be. I would be too, for not hanging onto my child. But you would be, because the gates are your responsibility.

There is no gate, it's ones of those gaps to allow bikes/pushchairs in.

Good to know that I'm not responsible for your child if they see my dogs and run off

curlew · 25/07/2013 12:32

Lackingenergy, nobody has said you should be.

babybythesea · 25/07/2013 12:39

I am not annoyed when children are childlike, I am annoyed when parents aren't parental.

This. I would say that most if not all of the dog owners on this thread have children and understand only too well that they are a work in progress. But what seems to be coming across from the non-dog owners is more "Children can't be expected to remember, so there's no point in teaching them, so dog owners must always be 100% able to guarantee their dogs behaviour."

The first and the third have been stated, the middle bit is how it's starting to come over even if it's not intended. And yet it does seem to only be dogs that this logic is applied to. In other instances where your child might forget, you pay extra attention to them to keep them safe, but seemingly not this one, if indeed they know anything to forget about in the first place.

And you are arguing with a bunch of people on here who all have both dogs and kids, and would be devastated if their dog hurt a child (even if the child did something to cause it in the first place). You can argue liability here all you want, and your child's need not to behave or know how to - fine. Because you are talking to a bunch of people who have, as far as I can see, agreed completely that their dog is their responsibility and needs to be under control. I haven't seen a single owner say otherwise I don't think. (Still waiting for a parent to say that they have some responsibility for their OWN child but hey ho!)

What if your child approaches an owner who doesn't see the world like this? They may not even be a mnetter. You've abdicated all need to teach your child any kind of dog safety because you are so convinced that the responsibility is mine, and you've pointed out my liability etc. Your child therefore knows nothing about approaching calmly, or asking the owner, chooses the wrong dog (and owner) to run up to, and has their face shredded. You can scream about liability all you like, the dog could be PTS, but your child has still been hurt. Still worth the complacency that someone else must take the responsibility?

I don't mind if a child comes up to pat the dog. I'm not usually in a massive hurry on dog walks, she likes the fuss, and I am fairly sure she won't react (she's been kicked once, and fallen on once, and she did nothing both times so I can be as close to 100% sure as possible). It's still polite to ask first - because you don't know any of this of you are meeting us for the first time. And as a parent you are responsible for your child's manners, not me. They may run up before you can grab them, as my own DD sometimes does. In which case you say "Hey, stop, what do you need to do first?" It's not rocket science. And guess what? Do this enough and they get better at remembering.

What seems to be repeatedly happening is that dog owners say "I need to keep my dog under control and you need to keep your children under control" and others seem to be saying "You need to keep your dogs under control because you are liable and children forget and it's your fault if they get hurt" and losing the second half completely.

Drivers need to drive with due care and attention but that does not remove from you the need to teach your child road safety, if only because you know some people may still speed, or talk on their phones, or because you want to limit the risk of your child putting themselves in harm's way. Why are dogs different???

babybythesea · 25/07/2013 12:47

Curlew - it's how it is coming across though.

As soon as we say "It's not ideal for children to run up to a strange dog" the reaction is "Then your dog isn't trustworthy and shouldn't be out or walked in daylight hours and it's your fault if my child gets hurt and you would be liable..."

Most of these posters do not start by saying "My child has been taught, and I do try to stop them if they start to run off but sometimes they forget/I'm not quick enough, so it's important that dogs are under control too."

And we are also interested if this logic applies to other perceived dangerous situations, like being on a busy road, (you teach them road safety, you keep an eye on them but you also expect drivers to be careful just in case) or if it is just dog owners who have to be responsible for the behaviour of every child near them while the parents look on, doing nothing, but ready to take legal action if needed...

curlew · 25/07/2013 12:51

As I said. Find someone who says that. There might have been one extreme poster who said something like that, but apart from her, I think it's in your imagination........

LackingEnergy · 25/07/2013 12:53

Yep a lot of people are saying that basically their child becomes a dog owners responsibility if the child is attracted to the dog and wanders over.

So based on that I wondered how much new responsibility I had to this unknown child near a busy main road since it is apparently my fault for daring to take dogs to a place where children may be :)

curlew · 25/07/2013 12:58

"Yep a lot of people are saying that basically their child becomes a dog owners responsibility if the child is attracted to the dog and wanders over."

NO THEY AREN't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

D0oinMeCleanin · 25/07/2013 13:05

Am I also in charge of my new child's washing? Say they ran over while my dogs are playing in the bog, since your child is now my responsibility I can give them permission to slide through on their belly but would I have do their washing or can I relinquish them back to the parents when the mud sliding is done.

LackingEnergy · 25/07/2013 13:08

"If my child come over to your dog, you are responsible for their safety"

Granted its one or two posters but they say the same thing in virtually all their posts which several others have agreed with :)

curlew · 25/07/2013 13:14

Look, I don't say that dog owners don't think it's ever their fault or responsibility if their dog bites someone- despite "that being how it's coming across". Because, althought that how it is coming across, I know that that is not how they think. Or, at least, only a tiny minority not worth bothering about think that. But it seems to be OK to tar those of us who think there is responsibility on both sides with the "dogs are hell hounds" brush. Which makes debate impossible. Hey. Ho.

babybythesea · 25/07/2013 13:17

That's why I said "It's how it's coming across." While no-one is posting explicitly that your child is now my responsibility, equally, almost no-one is starting out by taking responsibility for their own child themselves. All the dog owners (or most of them) have stated several times that they will control their dog. But the reverse is not true - people are not stating "I am responsible for my child." They are moving straight on to "You are liable, if your dog hurts my child etc etc" No acknowledgement of parental responsibility. Which makes it sound as though they won't accept any responsibility for how their child behaves but intend to off-load it all on to me as a dog owner. Which, understandably, is less than thrilling for me.

curlew · 25/07/2013 13:18

"But the reverse is not true - people are not stating "I am responsible for my child."

YES ThEY ARE!!!!!!

babybythesea · 25/07/2013 13:19

But we have all said repeatedly "It is my job and my responsibility to control my dog." Stated it explicitly.

We have also gone on to point out that there are things which could make a bite more likely - being approached by a child who then kicks the dog is one, and said isn't it sensible to teach your child how to avoid this risk? But that is NOT the same as saying "I do not have to control my dog."

curlew · 25/07/2013 13:24

I can't be bothered. I really don't know what the point is- there seems to be a sort of selective blindness happening. Somehow, anything which isn't "Dogs are wonderful and never ever bite unless they are poked with sticks by children" turns into "I think my child has a perfect right to kick any dog it see in the head"

saintlyjimjams · 25/07/2013 14:29

Curlew - I think the majority of people do see it as both sides having some responsibility. But there are 2 people who although capable of keeping their child away from cars, medicines, fire & people seem to be saying they are utterly incapable if even attempting to keep their child away from a dog.

I couldn't keep my son away from handbrakes last year so I supervised him very closely near cars. And yes that meant holding his hand a lot of time even though he's a teenager. It's called providing the level of supervision the child needs & is a parent's responsibility.

Canidae · 25/07/2013 15:18

Off topic!

Saintly- I thought of your son when my car had to have a new handbrake part fitted a couple days ago. Smile

saintlyjimjams · 25/07/2013 15:35
Grin
maninawomansworld · 25/07/2013 15:42

Ha... forget the children, some ADULTS need to know how to behave around dogs... or more precisely not to touch MY dogs without MY express permission.

Why do people seem to think it's okay just to go up to someone else's dog, fuss it and even bloody feed it?! My dogs are working dogs and are trained very strictly, I'm not mean to them just stuff like they are NEVER allowed to jump, they've never tasted human food, only get treats when they've earned them etc.. and most crucially .. they totally ignore strangers!
I can walk my adult dogs through a crowded place off the lead and they won't even turn a head to someone holding out a bag of crisps to them, they just follow me walking nicely to heel. This is only possible by very strict training as pups and continual reinforcement throughout their lives.

So to all you people (like the woman by the river last week) who say 'but I was only giving him a fuss, he's so cute', I say F*CK OFF AND GET YOUR OWN DOG IF YOU LIKE THEM SO MUCH... STOP TOUCHING MINE!

Sorry... needed to rant... feel much better now.. thanks for listening.

Donnadoon · 25/07/2013 16:24

You are very welcome maninawomansworld Grin Anytime

merrymouse · 25/07/2013 17:07

You shouldn't wander up to ANY animal you don't know and start petting/stroking/feeding it unless you have good reason to believe that you can protect yourself if it is actually trying to have some 'alone time' (I'm really thinking cats here), or you have checked with the owner - this also applies to cows, horses and donkeys.

tabulahrasa · 25/07/2013 19:28

Curlew - You're not saying that, I'm pretty sure you and me and most people are pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet.

Dog owners should be responsible for keeping dogs under control, even around expected child behaviour and low levels of unexpected child behaviour and should take reasonable measures to avoid stressful situations for their dog. Parents should supervise children if they're not yet able to behave in a way that's polite and kind around dogs.

That's pretty much it, the only reason I keep posting is because there are some people who insist that parents shouldn't be expected to supervise children because normal manners don't apply if you have a dog.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2013 22:51

LadyClarice, an attractive nuisance is anything that might attract children into danger or harm. Legally speaking it is taken to be an artificial feature on your property such as, for example, an unfenced pool, a hazardous outbuilding that is accessible by a trespassing child, a large pit, a disused and unfenced quarry, a chained dog. A dog may be compared to an attractive nuisance because children are attracted to it while it is out in public.
They are not doing the dog equivalent of leaving a dangerous rusty car out or having an unfenced swimming pool.
Yes they are.
The dog, no matter how well trained, may bite a child or another adult.
If this is not your concern then it should be.
It should be the concern of all dog owners, but it appears from this thread that the main concern is the feelings of dogs or the irritation of the owners. I am not getting the impression that dog owners here are worried that their dog might bite or injure someone.
Dogs are attractive to children just as unfenced swimming pools and old barns and rusty old cars are. I am repeating myself here, but there is ample evidence of this:
It is visible in warnings about sex predators and their methods of luring children using dogs and puppies as bait.
It is also obvious to the law that allowances need to be made for the nature of children in laws wrt liability of property owners for injuries sustained by children even when they trespass.

LadyClarice:
'How dare you?'
Math:

'Jeez, LadyClarice.
This is a public forum. It is AIBU no less.'
A little more careful reading of posts goes a long way.

And no, it is not a privilege for an individual human to walk about freely outdoors. It is a basic human right. Taking a dog out with you is a privilege because it is something conditional upon the dog being safe (health wise) for other animals and people (not rabid, has all shots up to date), not a threat to humans (not likely to bite or threaten or chase cars or people who are out running) and not a threat to their property (sheep especially). There are restrictions on ownership of certain breeds. Nobody has an untrammeled right to own or take out any dog, anywhere, on or off lead. There are places where dogs are not allowed except for guide dogs. The nature of dogs is taken into account when regulating them.

The place of parents in all this is to do their utmost but as the warnings about predatory strangers and their tricks show, children cannot be counted upon to pay heed to parental warnings.

SaintlyJimjams --
Ok math - if my so happens to run up and stand right behind your car as you start it I'll leave him to it. After all if you run him over I can just explain that he is drawn magnetically to handbrakes and he doesn't understand much language and is really forgetful.

It is specifically dogs that are recognised as attractive to children. Nobody is talking about handbrakes. Nobody thinks they are attractive. We are talking about furry, fascinating dogs, the stars of many children's programmes on TV and who feature as friendly and loveable characters in innumerable children's books. It is the effect specifically of dogs on children that makes your expectations wrt their behaviour and your judgeyness about their parents unreasonable and most likely unwarranted. You can see this in the warnings about predators using dogs to lure them -- and the reality of children forgetting warnings about strangers and dogs alike. You clearly do not understand that if you love your dog is is likely that children are going to find it attractive too. Is there too much putting of yourself in someone else's shoes required here?

If you are happy to let a child stand behind a moving or potentially moving car then presumably he would be in the street or in someone's drive, and therefore not where a child should be standing. In that case, allowing it would be contributory negligence on your part. A driver should check the rearview mirror before setting off but a child might not be tall enough to be seen standing right behind a car.

Drivers must obey the speed limit and drive according to weather and traffic conditions and observe warnings such as a playground or school ahead sign but you can still do a lot of harm to a child (esp if the point of impact is the child's head) even when crawling along if the child runs out into a road where he should not be and a driver doesn't see him in time. Driving a car, like taking a dog out, is not a right but a privilege because cars, like dogs, are potentially dangerous.

A child in a park otoh is where a child has a perfect right to be, yet you are expecting parents to be extra vigilant when you take your dog out to the same park -- you are expecting parents to enable your privilege. It is completely unreasonable for you to take out a dog among children, many of whom do not understand much language and are really forgetful, and expect them to stay away, given the attractiveness to children of many dogs. As a driver, you do not expect others to enable your privilege, and drive without regard for the safety of others.

Babybythesea, nobody is saying 'they can't remember so there is no point in teaching them'.
Parents care about their children and all but the most seriously negligent warn them about danger and about appropriate behaviour, but they still cross their fingers every time they go out, even when they are teens, because they know the children can still do stupid and dangerous things, make a wrong decision in a split second that can lead to disaster.

They do not have the neurological maturity to do otherwise. They can't vote or drive or marry or consent to sex until they reach a certain age. Their immaturity is known and recognised. Drivers and dog owners alike need to be cognisant of this and not expect parents to accomplish the impossible.

What is being said over and over again is that dog owners' expectation that children will remember is crazy. The annoyance can be avoided simply by avoiding children.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2013 23:19

As soon as we say "It's not ideal for children to run up to a strange dog" the reaction is "Then your dog isn't trustworthy and shouldn't be out or walked in daylight hours and it's your fault if my child gets hurt and you would be liable..."

If it's just a question of your dog being nervous when children approach, then you are being really, really precious.

If you are worried that your dog isn't socialised enough to handle the approach and attention of unpredictable small children then that is the point where you need to start worrying about the safety of the children and change your walk route or time.
If you refuse to do this then you are likely to come across as someone who puts your alleged rights ahead of the safety of children.

Most of these posters do not start by saying "My child has been taught, and I do try to stop them if they start to run off but sometimes they forget/I'm not quick enough, so it's important that dogs are under control too."

So many posters have pointed out that children lose their heads around dogs it is becoming clear that there are many dog owners who as children must have turned their parents' hair grey from repeatedly telling them things they simply didn't take in at all.

And we are also interested if this logic applies to other perceived dangerous situations, like being on a busy road, (you teach them road safety, you keep an eye on them but you also expect drivers to be careful just in case) or if it is just dog owners who have to be responsible for the behaviour of every child near them while the parents look on, doing nothing, but ready to take legal action if needed

Here you have lost your argument. Yes drivers must be careful. Driving is a privilege and obeying signage and speed limits and being sober behind the wheel is necessary. Signage around places where children are to be found in any numbers is especially thick on the ground. So yes, dog owners must also be vigilant and careful and conscious of the safety of children when they take their pets out to similar places to those that are signed for drivers to take extra precautions. When drivers can expect to see children in the road or close to it they are expected to drive vigilantly. Dog owners bringing their pets to a park where children congregate should similarly expect to do so with safety of children uppermost in their minds.

They are not responsible for the behaviour of every child near them. Nobody has said that. They are responsible for their dog. If the dog isn't predictably safe in every situation involving children then avoiding children is sensible. (If the dog isn't predictably safe when there are other dogs around then avoid other dogs. Many owners do this because they take the nature of their dog into account and other dog owners tend to sue when their pet gets savaged). If the dog just gets anxious when children are around then avoid children for the sake of the dog. If you get annoyed when children approach and slow you down then walk elsewhere or at a different time. It will be far more relaxing for everyone concerened.