To think parents should teach their children how to behave round dogs

[Xihha]

There have been a few posts lately about people needing to control their dogs more (and I agree, if you cant control our dog and clean up after it then you shouldn't have a dog imo), but is it unreasonable to expect parents to teach children to be a bit more careful round dogs?

Whilst walking my dog (on his lead) a child who looked about 10 ran up and stuck his head in my dogs face to make a fuss of him whilst i was picking up doggys poo, without checking if it was ok, there have been other times kids have just walked up and started pulling doggy around, this sort of thing happens a lot, especially in the summer when there are more kids out playing and the parents rarely say anything about it.

It's not really an issue with my great soppy lump of a dog because he loves kids and will put up with anything for a bit of fuss but shouldn't these kids know that you should check with the owners before approaching strange dogs and that even a nice dog can get pissed of if you start pulling it around?

"Babybythesea, you are talking about a child of about 8 right?"

"Babybythesea you held on to your dogs collar, just in case. Most owners don't. They would respond in a sure it's fine, when actually you can see their dog with its tail between its legs looking not very happy. If you don't know the owner then don't ask. It's rude to ask too mrsw. I quite like babies but I don't go up to random people asking to hold their baby yet its acceptable to ask to stroke their dog."

Come back to this this morning - wow, it's still running. People asked me questions after I'd gone to bed. So I'll answer them.

Yes, the child was about 8. But she knew to ask without prompting by an adult. Which suggests she's been taught it from the get-go. My own DD is 4 and also always asks, because I've taught her. (And endured the tantrums when she wouldn't ask and I've refused to let her stroke the dog). And when she was a toddler and learning to talk, she wasn't usually so far away from me that I couldn't grab her hand and stop her approaching until she'd asked (and I'd translated). Surely with toddlers they are nearer to you and you watch them more to make sure they don't hurt themselves (you watch a toddler on a climbing frame far more closely than you would supervise the 8 year old) and then as they get bigger and can be more trusted to remember things that's when they stray further - not just dog-related but this is also what you do on the roads, near hot ovens etc etc.

I'm not sure about the second point. Most people I've come across have said no if the dog doesn't want to be touched. We see lots of dogs out on dog walks with our own, and we've had everything from "Sure he loves it" to "no, he's really not keen on small kids" to "This one's fine, that one over there isn't". I've yet to see a situation like you describe - a dog owner allowing a child to pet when the dog is clearly unhappy. That is where danger would lie and that is irresponsible. I'm a dog owner, my dog loves a fuss (unlike the baby who does not like being passed around). It's really isn't rude to just check with me first.

Also, a dog on a lead can most certainly be out if control. How many times have you seen someone being pulled along by their dog? Or unable to pull their dog away from something?

A "not friendly" dog could quite easily sink their teeth into a passing person, on a lead or not - especially it is one of those long retractable leads.

And we've also had armchair dog psychologist s on here tell us that leads make some dogs moire anxious anyway, thus denting your theory further.

Why would you take a dog out in public, who is "NOT FRIENDLY" without them wearing a muzzle?

Dog was being walked on MOD land. Parent and child should not have been there. When training abused dogs socialisation is important, and yes, I would use a muzzle in a public place.

A "not friendly" dog could quite easily sink their teeth into a passing person, on a lead or not - especially it is one of those long retractable leads

And that would be a dog that was not under control, therefore a completely different thread and not what the OPs discussion was here.

"My point, which you seem completely unable to grasp after 3 days and 17 pages, is that whether I train my child or not is largely irrelevant, and the responsibility for safety still ultimately remains with the dog owner. This is because kids are kids, and cannot be totally controlled for the convenience of dog owners - and very importantly, in public spaces are not expected to be."

It's not irrelevant though lazey, because if you train your child there is a massively reduced risk of your child being hurt. So why wouldn't you? It's not fool-proof, obviously, because young children do forget, but they also forget about cars being things that hurt and I assume you take steps to avoid that risk? It is nothing whatsoever to do with my dog being more important than your child - I'd be mortified if my dog bit. But if I have her on a lead, walking to heel, and your child smacks her one because you've failed to teach it the basics of 'ask before you touch and don't hit' then I'd be beyond angry (the dog is unlikely to react - I know, she got kicked once in the situation I describe and didn't do anything beyond try to run away, which of course she couldn't because I had her on a lead. I did something though which just fell short of lamping the kid who'd done it), and I'd be even worse if you insisted the dog was PTS< simply because you haven't taught your child to behave with a bit of common decency.

Again, it's like cars. If you teach your child not to run into the road, it won't guarantee they will never forget and it won't keep them safe from the lunatic who mounts the pavement but it significantly helps to keep them from harm. Why are you so resistant to teaching your child a little bit (not a full textbook of dog psychology, but a very simple 'ask first, be gentle') of behaviour that might just stop them ever being bitten?

You seem to be trying to offload responsibility for your children on to everyone else. I definitely have responsibility towards others for the behaviour of my dog - I take it seriously and have trained her and keep her under control. But you also have responsibilities as a parent and at the moment you are behaving as if your children are everybody else's responsibility which is what is annoying all the dog owners. My dog has no reason to be your child's punchbag, whatever your child feels like. And so far you haven't acknowledged that, you've just kept saying "Whatever the child does" without saying that children don't actually have the right to do whatever they want. Accidents and slips happen, for sure, but they are less likely if kids do generally know what to do, compared to how often this might happen if kids aren't taught.

It's not frothing, it's reading someone's posts who seems to be saying "My children are allowed to do whatever they want but if they come to any harm as a result it is your fault". Do you also blame the manufacturers of fire-works if your kids get burnt when they play with them, or do you teach them not to play with fireworks? Do you blame a car driver if your child runs out into the road, or do you teach your child not to run out?

Gosh - I'm not an armchair dog psychologist.Dogs on leads are fine & in control but may react differently if approached very close & they feel constrained. This is just basic dog psychology. Most owners are well aware of it & know how their dog is likely to react in different situations.

Same as if you spend any time around horses it helps to remember they are prey animals & see the world from their eyes. It helps prevent problems.

babybythesea great and rational post
Unfortunately you appear to be speaking to someone who has a massive sense of entitlement to go through life with arms like windmills, expecting everyone and everything to fall into line with her way of thinking and that when life doesn't quite go according to plan, it's always, always someone else's fault because she is always, ALWAYS right.

I do find this 'la la la' response to advice about behaviour around dogs to be hard to understand. We didn't get a dog until ds1 was about 11, I still wanted the kids to learn how to behave around dogs before then.

This thread is getting nowhere and honestly all I am imagining is Lazy shoving unsuspecting children into the path of unsuspecting dogs just to try and prove her point!

Lol me too - that's why I keep trying to find out whether she shoves stick wielding children into the paths of horses as well.

I agree, people are being deliberately obtuse and pointedly ignoring common sense in order to give full vent to their rage.

Happily though, dogs aren't going anywhere so let people froth away as much as pleases them.

"She has no business taking her dog out if it's not friendly"

Where did the OP say her dog was not friendly? That's been the whole problem with the thread.

The OP has said she doesn't want her friendly, leashed dog jumped on by strange children and straight away the hysteria about her dog ripping off faces started. One person has advocated beating dogs with sticks.

OP hasn't said her dog is unfriendly, she's said that other people shouldn't just grab her dog and that one of the reasons they shouldn't do so is because they don't know if a dog is friendly unless they ask.

There are other reasons, besides the friendliness or unfriendliness of the dog, why people shouldn't just grab them.

Kids should be taught to respect animals and to never intentionally hurt them.

If that removed the risk of dogs to children then I would be happy with the status quo.

But dogs do bite and attack children that were not doing anything wrong or anything that could be expected by the child (or parent) to draw such a reaction.

I have been bitten myself under such circumstances.

How does it help the bitten child (or parent) that the dog could have been better trained, or muzzled?

It doesn't.

The only thing that would help is it not happening. The only way to guarantee that is to prevent chance encounters of children with dogs.

It is not just about the child's safety though, it is basic manners.

When I walk my dogs I am often on my lunch break and thus in a hurry, I do not have time to stop and entertain your child just because I have a dog with me. If they ask I can reply "Sorry, darling, I am in a rush today, another time maybe" Or "Yes, but only for a wee while because I need to get back to work soon. The black doggy likes children, but don't touch the white one, he's sometimes grumpy" however if your child simply runs up to me and plonks themselves on the floor in front of me I am not always able to get away in time, or warn them in time not to touch the white dog, who would not be aggressive to children, but does not actively like them and looks at me with big, sad "stop them please" eyes, when children harass him, he is only interested in walking and peeing up bushes, he does not want to meet your child, as lovely as he or she may be. Ditto if your child runs up to me and grabs hold of one of my dogs, I don't have time to have to stop to physically extract my dogs from your child's arms.

Also I get children following me, like I am some kind of dog owning pied piper. I get very wary about continuing walking and taking them too far away from their parents, who are not always watching them as closely as they should be.

Sometimes I have my headphones in and have to take them out to respond to the child, meaning they can her my music through the now dangling round my neck headphones. I don't want to have to explain to your child what a threesome is when they hear P!nk belting out what she wants to do now her partner has left her.

One of my dogs is a very fragile breed, so I'd appreciate a heads up if your child does not yet know not to push down with all their might or pat her as hard as they can, not because she might bite, but because her bones are easily broken and whilst she is insured I can assure you that if your child injures my dog because you were not paying close enough attention to them, it will not be me paying the excess on the insurance.

When I am clearly out running, but happen to have a dog with me, I am running. You would not let your child approach runner without a dog to ask them about their phone/ipod/running shoes, so don't let them approach me to ask about my dog, ditto when I am cycling and happen to have a dog with me.

If my dog is taking a shite and I am busy getting a shite bag and not paying attention to the not shitting dog, do not let your child simply walk over and start petting my dogs, because without my attention and commands the small one will try to climb on your child's lap and lick their face, if you ask I can show them how to pet her without her doing this. The white dog will try and avoid your child, which ime, upsets them (the children not the dog)

All that said I do try and be polite with children, despite the fact that I am not always fond of other people's children, as is my right, but if you are the fifth person to get in front of me in as many minutes and just start manhandling my "puppy" who is actually just a very small adult dog, don't be surprised if I am short with you and curtly ask you to leave us alone.

If I notice that a child is wary but clearly longing to stroke my "puppy" I will always try and stop to make time for them. Lots of parents have expressed grateful surprise when their usually terrified of dogs child takes an interest in getting close to my puppy and later tell me that that experience with my 'puppy' helped their child immensely in dealing with their fear. I know a fear of dogs is always upsetting for children and their parents so I am happy to help if I have time.

I have a right to enjoy public spaces without being harassed by other people's children, having a cute dog with me does not negate that right. Just be respectful, that is all I ask and in return I will make sure my dogs are respectful of your right to enjoy public spaces without harassment from them.

' The only way to guarantee that is to prevent chance encounters of children with dogs.'

Easy enough as long as you're happy for your children to never leave the boundaries of their own home and garden.

The only way to prevent children being run over is to prevent chance encounters with cars
The only way to prevent children being kicked is to prevent chance encounters with horses
The only way to prevent children falling off a slide is to prevents chance encounters with slides
The only way to prevent children drowning is prevent children going in swimming pools or the sea

Or maybe in all these cases we need to initially supervise & gradually teach children how to behave appropriately to reduce risk of damage in each if these situations.

dOoin why do you treat it as success that you 'got a kid over their fear' then?

Surely a hands behind back slightly fearful keeping of your distance is the correct attitude to an unknown dog?

You get them in and petting your friendly dog and the next thing you know, they have approached the wrong dog and the OP is fuming all over again.

A little consistency of message wouldn't go amiss. If it is wrong to approach unknown dogs then tell kids that every time they approach your dogs.

In fact when it comes down to it that is the thing that most pisses me off about the idiots that let their dogs run up to my toddler yelling 'he's really friendly, don't worry'. My toddler isn't smart enough yet to deal with this being true for one dog and not another....I 'd rather stick to 'stay the fuck away from dogs'. It is a simple straight forward message with no obvious downside.

yeah but there are advantages to swimming and cars. Slides and horses you can keep. Especially horses...even less domesticated than dogs. Horses will definitely bite you as soon as look at you....

I taught my children to ask the owner before approaching a dog to stroke it. It's really not hard.

Just like I taught them not to just run across roads rather than relying on drivers spotting them.

Dogs, slides, horses all on the 'banned' list?

What a very sanitised and risk averse childhood you must be planning for your kids.

sorry that might not have been clear...my point is there is a cost benefit ratio to having cars that means the dangers are outweighed by the enhancement of daily life. I don't see how dogs and horses pass that criteria. Slides actually are fun and don't bite in general....the accidents you can have on a slide are less serious than being mauled by a dog, or kicked by a horse.

I think I will stick to telling my DD to stay away from dogs. Whatever fringe benefit can be gained by petting a strangers dogs it can't possibly be worth the risk that the dog goes for you.

See both horses and dogs used to have actual roles in human society...it is different keeping them just as pets...

Hm well I have seen horses on my beach.

And yesterday there were some wild ponies on the track me, ds1 and the dog were following.

There's going to be a lot of places you won't be going.

Never mind that horse riding is fun for kids

Some of the children Whippy has helped, were not simply nervous of dogs, they were petrified to the point where they would run into on coming traffic to avoid them. That is not safe. Plus dogs are a part our daily lives whether you like it or not. I am afraid of balloons, I'd be a nervous wreck if every time I stepped out of the house I encountered a load of balloons.

I talk to them while they are stroking her and show them the best way to pet a dog and remind them that they must always ask the owner before petting a dog, because while the vast majority of dogs are friendly, some are not or some might be sick and need peace and quiet. I don't turn them into dog hugging monsters, they just become more able to control their fear and less likely to step into traffic to get out of the way of the excited lab coming their way.