To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Bumbleymummy Savita was someones wife sister daughter and friend.. Have a fecking heart will you..
Can you not see womens lives are at risk here.

It could be you some day or your sister, daughter friend.

PS I'm Irish, live in Ireland and HATE that women in this country are treated as incompetent, incapable and voiceless when it comes to reproductive rights. In a week when 4 religious orders refuse to compensate women who endured forced labour for the "sin" of having children outside marriage, we also have to endure the bullshit ramblings of those who would have us pray on our knees for forgiveness for wanting to not go through forced pregnancies.

No idea what that means MaryZ so that was a wasted post! :)

I didn't say to term, Bumbley. You did.

Bumbley have you heard of Cardinal Connell? even my nearly 70 year old father groaned when he said there was no need for abortion ever to save a woman's life.

One way or another Savita was having that termination, that poor wanted little baby would have died no matter what happend. It is an awful shame that they waited until its mother was terminally ill to carry out the termination because now they are both dead and while no one can say with absolute certainty if Savita would have lived or died with any other treatment but the obs who ran the investigation and Peter Boylan both said that best medical practice in her case would have involved a termination at an earlier stage. Your opinions on this matter sound a little like Cardinal Connells.

Lucy, I'm not the one who brought her up on the thread in the first place. Direct your outrage elsewhere. Or do you find it acceptable for her to be discussed as long as it is by someone who shares your opinion?

Sorry dontlaugh, I thought you were pro-choice.

I am completely prochoice. Always.

Neun, if you had read the thread younwould know that my views are not the same as the Cardinal's nor are the Irish Catholic's Bishops who issued a statement after Savita's death. I've copied some of it below. So I don't think you should be tarring everyone with the same brush.

• The Catholic Church has never taught that the life of a child in the womb should be preferred to that of a mother. By virtue of their common humanity, a mother and her unborn baby are both sacred with an equal right to life.

• Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

• Whereas abortion is the direct and intentional destruction of an unborn baby and is gravely immoral in all circumstances, this is different from medical treatments which do not directly and intentionally seek to end the life of the unborn baby. Current law and medical guidelines in Ireland allow nurses and doctors in Irish hospitals to apply this vital distinction in practice while upholding the equal right to life of both a mother and her unborn baby.

So you do support abortion to term then?

But you are discussing her whether you brought her up or not bumbleymummy

You don't show an ounce of compassion for women.
Are you actually a woman at all?

Do please bare in mind that one day you or someone dear to you may face this situation.

Last post was to dontllaugh

Why aren't you having a go at anyone else who is discussing her Lucy?

A couple more insults to add to my list... The pro-choicers are on fire on this thread!

Oh Christ on a bike! Quoting the Fucking catholic church really bumbleymummy. They single handley destroyed more human life than any abortion clinic in the world!

There should be no equal right to life.. The womans life should be saved first.. There I've said it! Now shoot me

Lucy - in response to neun talking about Cardinal Connell. It's to illustrate that his opinion is not representative of all Catholics.

That should have been fairly obvious...

And the woman's life is saved first...even the Catholic Church (well, excepting Cardinal Connell and possibly a few others) supports that.

But Bumbley you are the one arguing over the semantics of the Savita Hallapanver case. You are the one saying other treatments would have saved her. That was precisely the Cardinal's point, he does not recognise that in any cases which have ever been that a termination would have been necessary to save the woman's life which is like the unsubstantiated positions you have been presenting all evening on Savita's treatments. There are plenty of other who agree with him too even doctors and I hope none of my family encounter them if they are in Savita's position.

For the record I do not believe in termination to term unless the baby is incompatible with life otherwise I believe in the early delivery of babies when a mother's life is threatened although that question may have been directed elsewhere.

*if possible the early delivery of the baby

This thread was hard reading. I'm in the UK and had a termination this year. Before I guess I thought maybe some people did use it as a contraception. Then I went through it and physically it was horrendous. Did I want to continue with the pregnancy? Yes. But financially and practically I couldn't. Pro life people seem to be happy once they've prevented the termination but who would have cared for my child at 3am while I was at work? Who could have given me financial support?
I'm sad, of course I am that on a f/t wage I can't afford a child. And oddly to me, yes it was a baby not just a foetus which is probably why I am struggling with it so much
I terminated and lost my family, if I had continued with the pregnancy I would have lost them too. Stuck in between a rock and a hard place
I'm grateful it wa accessible when my contraception failed and I have more empathy now for people who go through it. I can't even imagine what it must be like to not have the option (or at least as freely available) to terminate

I'm so sorry goodasitgets

I hope things get easier.

I just... It's not as easy to say you believe a foetus has a right or not. My right would have been to give a child a stable upbringing and I couldn't. It's all well and good being "anti abortion" but unless you are prepared to help the person financially and practically you can't just say "don't abort" and sod off and leave them once you've told them to keep the child
As I said I have a lot more empathy now, I underestimated the physical pain and it had broken me emotionally as well as ruining my relationship with my parents

On another note sure contraception is easily available but not all. I was refused the pill and I didn't trust condoms alone, and had to wait for an appointment for a consultation then another, and then wait a bit longer to have a coil fitting. The clinic is the other side of town and would have been 2 bus trips and a walk if I didn't drive
I don't feel there are many women at all who take a termination lightly and even if they do its not my right to judge them. Better that than bringing an unwanted child into the world or one that you cannot support financially or practically

No, I said that other treatments may have saved her - no would because you can't guarantee anything. The reason I am highlighting it is because certain posters are saying it is the only thing that could have saved her which the expert himself didn't even say! I've been (falsely)accused of misquoting on this thread yet the same posters seem quite happy to let that slide when it is a pro-choicer that is doing the misquoting..

The cardinal's opinion has nothing to do with me. It would seem that other Catholics don't agree with him anyway (see bishop quotes). It's also a huge stretch to say that because you think there is a possibility that in one case the life of a mother may have been saved by better treatment (something her own doctors highlighted) that you would then extrapolate that to in all cases a woman's life could be saved without abortion.

You realise that not supporting abortion to term would technically mean that you couldn't be described as 'pro-choice' don't you? You're putting your own conditions on when you think abortion is appropriate.

That's a very honest post goodas and it's very sad that you felt that you could not continue with the pregnancy. If you're still feeling very upset, it might not be the best idea to read threads like this because it is a very sensitive subject and emotions run high on both sides of the argument.