To think cutting people out of your life is just cruel

[ThinkAboutItTomorrow]

I know I am risking a real flaming here, and I honestly do appreciate that every case is very different and I cannot judge anything without knowing each case. However I see a lot of advice on here, mostly in relationships, where the advice is to 'just walk away' or 'cut them out of your life'. Now, in many cases I can see the point BUT......

I have a MIL. She is enormously hard work. Totally selfish, manipulative, vindictive and cannot even conceive of not getting her own way, a real pain in the ass. She drives me scatty and on occasion her manipulation makes me very angry. She repeatedly gets the hump and has little hissy fits, stopping speaking to DP and I for months on end (once because DP told his grandmother the dog had died ) then decides to make up. If you tackle her she tantrums - literally storming out screaming that she never wants to see you again. I suspect she could benefit from counselling but she won't even countenance it.

She is the mother to 4 grown up kids. 2 of them no longer speak to her and one is emigrating (in part I think to get away). This leaves DP. Oh joy. PIL are also homeless, having sold up to go travelling and when back in the UK they end up staying with us for months at a time, without really asking properly.

Anyway, sorry for length. Despite all this I see the total utter misery and heartbreak not seeing her 2 children causes her and I think they are really nasty for continuing to refuse to see her. At least part of her bad behaviour seems to stem from this misery. last week I could hear her crying her heart out (through the ceiling) and it turned out it was her 'lost' daughter's birthday (didn't talk to MIL, asked DP if he knew what was up). This is someone who ran away at 16 and is now back in touch with many others in the family but won't have anything to do with her parents.

They weren't abusive or anything, DP was living at home as an adult when she left and said at the time it just seemed like the usual teenage angst (ok, it's a bit more complicated but not wanting to out self or anyone else).

Everytime anyone asks PIL if DD is their first grandchild they just look stricken. They have 5 grandchildren but don't even know the names of all of them and have never met any but DD. Yes they are a nightmare but they don't deserve this misery.

Anyway - AIBU to think that people should sometimes be a bit more forgiving and tolerant? families can be a PITA but to just walk away because it makes life easier is just selfish and cruel.

Go on, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.....

Yabu!

My inlaws are toxic and while sh hasn't cut them.out of our lives he has wanted to several times. I stupidly stopped him because I didn't want him to be hurt with regrets...I see this as a last resort although they do continue to be awful towards him and I but it hurts him more.

Seeing their poisonous and manipulative behaviour I now want to protect my ds...and dh feels even more strongly about that too.

You don't really know, maybe never know, the extent of damage in these kinds of relationships unless you are directly involved....each situation is different.

I would never set out to cut people out of my.life but sadly I do see the need in some destructive relationships.

If you lived with my dh, and the utter hurt he has which leads to depressive states you may feel differently.

OP, you do realise that you are feeding your mil's inner narrative that she is a misunderstood spirit, who has mothered three ingrates? You may see your self as putting up with trying behaviour, and may have told yourself (and even dh for all I know) that there is a "red line" - protecting your offspring - which she cannot cross but have you told her that her behaviour is such that she risks jeopardising her one remaining children-relationship?

I worry that your continuing relationship with your mil actually does hold an immmanent judgement as to the ethical behaviour of your dh's siblings, and that judgment chastises them, and absolves your mil. She really will be fully aware of that.

I think cory's post (and others that raised similar points later) had it very early on. And then your subsequent recognition that she is something of an ongoing emotional risk for children.

I know that you posed your AIBU as a general question rather than a particular question (about your particular situation), so I will close generally:

At what point shoudl there be an ethical imperative to tell others to alter their behaviour, or to tell others that we strongly disapprove of their behaviour? That it is harmful? That it contravenes our code of ethics? And how might we go about that? With people we know? With people we don't know well? With people we are intimately involved with in kin relationships?

I do sometimes wonder if, rather than those who cut off relationships with others being an issue, there is actually a greater issue with those who persist in relations with unethical others, and say and do nothing.

sorry to jump in well into the thread, but please dont assume kids cut off their parents because it's the parent's 'fault'. Not necessarily.

Please don't assume that all kids are innocent lambs who do the very best. Some kids are toxic, just like some parents are toxic. Don't assume it's all down to the parents re They must have been pretty bad for their DD to run away at 16 and never have any more contact with them

also, please bear in mind that, by the law of averages, some of you could be one of the parents who gets cut off. You don't think so? Because you're a good parent? It doesn't always work like that.

I have cut out my hideously toxic siblings but keep in touch with my relatively toxic parents. I can't do it to them. I tried to but it nearly killed my mum. It's too late for her to be facing stuff. I only see my dad because he lives with my mum - if my mum wasn't alive I don't think I would see him (but I never know how things will be then iyswim). I have learned some really good skills with my parents - I never thought I would, or that I should. But now I'm doing it and it's not half bad. I see it that I am seeing some severely damaged people - and, although they have damaged me, somehow I'm in a better place... I'm hesitating to say 'I can take it' because every time I see them I don't know if this will be the day they slaughter me somehow - as anybody with toxic relatives knows, the strikes come from nowhere and there is no warning - but that is a risk I am prepared to take. I know it won't be long before they're dead.

I wouldn't generally recommend this but it's right for me at this time. It's day at a time stuff. I'll see how it goes.

That's true Springy - but in the OP's case, it's 3 out of 4 DC who have decided to cut or minimise contact with her MIL - kind of suggests it's more the MIL than the DC, doesn't it?

I agree though - toxic people don't just become toxic when they become parents! Like narcs don't suddenly become narcs when they get together with someone - it's already there, in their nature.

it's 3 out of 4 DC who have decided to cut or minimise contact with her MIL - kind of suggests it's more the MIL than the DC, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. It's likely, but not necessarily the case.

There are a lot of toxic influences around within toxic families.

True. Have pm'd you, by the way - only mentioning it because the blue dot is rather less obvious than the lovely red blob that was there previously

I agree with your point springytoto , but this particular MIL is described by the OP as:

"Totally selfish, manipulative, vindictive and cannot even conceive of not getting her own way, a real pain in the ass. She drives me scatty and on occasion her manipulation makes me very angry."

Although I'd agree with you that children are just as capable of being toxic as parents, and that assumptions shouldn't necessarily be made either way, in this case the MIL comes across far from reasonable herself.

oh I agree it's so sad to lose that red dot that signals a juicy PM!

yes, in this case it certainly looks like the MIL has had a lot to do with the outcome. However, as I said above, kids can be toxic too, especially if it runs in the family (not necessarily nurture, either).

When someone you love lets you down so badly and hurts you and people you love in a way that you wouldn't even think possible, you realise you may have never known that person at all. I don't want to get to know someone who I thought I knew all over again.

YABU, but if you've not experienced that kind of deep hurt, you couldn't expect to understand and I hope you never do.

By the way, I am impressed that you posted an AIBU in which you re=thought your position. That sort of flexibility of thinking is not uncommon but is always impressive to see it in action.

(sorry, that is really clumpily put - but it is hot and I am tired. I do still mean it, though.)

What jumps out from your OP is the lack of knowledge of what has gone on. Your dp is the eldest so will have been away from home for longer. You weren't there at all. I take it you've not talked to the daughter who left home at 16?
Even the superficially nicest people can be negligent and emotionally abusive parents, but it sounds like a) your MIL isn't very nice and b) that there is something that you (and your dp) really don't know about, something serious.
Total supposition of course, but with such a dearth of information I think it's a bit pointless being upset on your MIL's behalf.

Also totally agree that you may be feeding the MIL's narrative. It's easily done, you want to think the best of people who are in difficult circumstances. Easier to remain detached, listen intently to what people are really saying, not your interpretations, and keep quiet about what you truly hear but use it to protect yourself a little.

I cut my father out of my life when I was 17. I'm now 31. My younger sister ceased contact a year later. He was an abusive arsehole.

My elder sister made the choice to keep in contact. We don't speak about each others choices to each other. We obviously think of our childhood differently and have differing levels of forgiveness. I live two streets away from him and if i stood next to him in the street i would ignore him, and have done. We were both guests at my sisters wedding. I ignored him.

He has step children who worship the ground he walks on. I am continously bitched about for making shit up about the past, or my mum blamed for feeding me lies.

But i know i saw him beat the crap out my mum. I remember beating down the back door to try and help her as he beat and screamed at her. I remember mum bathing my sister and i with cold flannels after he smacked us all over our legs with force. I remember him calling me a fat cow and kicking me as i laid on the floor at the age of 12. I remember him ringing my mum saying he didn't need us kids anymore as he had a new family.

So to the outside, to my step siblings, to anyone they speak to, i am unreasonable. But i don't care. My life is better without him in it. My children will never ever know him. They are seven and five and he is nothing to them. I know what really happened behind closed doors when he had the perfect charade going on of the dumped man, the school governor, the youth club worker. And so does he. He just chooses, as the manipulative abusive man he is to blame me instead.

So yabu. Its not cruel. The events leading up to the cutting them out are cruel.

It depends. When I met DH's family I wondered how the fuck members of the same family would never speak to each other and would plain old ignore each other at weddings, children's parties, etc. I thought it was so petty and odd that they didn't just bury the hatchet. But then I heard the stories behind the divisions and realised that they had just found the least painful way of getting by.

In my own family, an argument never lasts more than an hour. In fact, DH is the only person I've ever had a fight with that lasted more than one night. But I'm very, very lucky to have a great family. DH has not been so lucky and I can see why he doesn't speak to some people.

Springyto, my mum felt the same way as you. She's still dealing with her toxic mother in her sixties, her mother is in her nineties and going strong. All those years of misery because my mum kept thinking 'it can't go on for much longer now'

I'm sorry to say this OP but frankly you sound self-deluding about your MIL and it worries me. Look at what you have said about her -

"She is not selfish or cruel. She loves her kids. She just doesn't seem to want them to grow up and be adults away from her. All the problems were in her not letting go."
Not wanting your children to grow up IS selfish, and it IS cruel since it is likely to go hand-in-hand with not preparing them for adult life, leaving them vulnerable. If someone won't let you go, you are trapped. How is that not selfish and cruel ?

Plus, you're contradicting yourself anyway, as you've already, in your OP, described her as "Totally selfish, manipulative, vindictive". I have to say I regard vindictive and cruel as synonyms. Are you starting to see why I am thinking you are self-deluding here?

Let's look at your full description of her :

"She is enormously hard work. Totally selfish, manipulative, vindictive and cannot even conceive of not getting her own way, a real pain in the ass. She drives me scatty and on occasion her manipulation makes me very angry. She repeatedly gets the hump and has little hissy fits, stopping speaking to DP and I for months on end ... then decides to make up. If you tackle her she tantrums - literally storming out screaming that she never wants to see you again."
And yet you continue to let this woman into your life and the lives of your DC?

I am starting to wonder if you started this thread as some sort of reverse AIBU, i.e. you want to cut her out of your life but are worried that others would see this as selfish and cruel. Well, we don't. You have your validation from the population of MN, you can safely cut this woman from your life and the lives of your DC and no-one will do anything but agree, sympathise, and ask why you didn't do it sooner.

This woman has driven away three of her four children. The fourth, your DH, is the only one hanging in there and really, he shouldn't either. To paraphrase (and extend) Oscar Wilde: "To lose one child may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness; and to lose three is one big huge waving Mumsnet red flag telling you to get out while you still can.

Winky, thanks for your questions about my situation - you see it very clearly! The truth is I'm at a bit of a crossroads right now and considering it again, after a very upsetting event which involved raking up the past in great detail (can't explain what on here).

so basically your mum can do anything she likes, behave as badly as she wants because she believes she's a nice person and would be too hurt by no contact? My god. She's a lucky woman to have you on her side. Hope she doesn't damage your dcs.

I'm really not on her side at all, though I know it may look that way to her. It is very much arm's length and we see her 3-4 times a year. No way on earth would she get to care for my DC. My DP is right on her case and pulls her up immediately on any shit she spouts that might affect the DC. He is much bolder than me though I am getting bolder with her too. I do feel lucky that we are very much both on the same side when confronted with her.

Do you think your dad being such a villain has raised your tolerance levels somewhat?

Yes, totally. For a long time I just fell into seeing her as my (relatively) "OK" parent, like at least I had one OK one. I have slowly come to realise I don't have any OK ones. That is a tough thing to face and especially miserable when it has taken you till your 40s to face it.

It has been difficult recently and my mental health has suffered from fallout of above event, I'm on ADs and so on, BUT on the plus side, I feel like I'm making my way through it and ultimately cutting her off might be the result.

If anything this is more evidence of what others have said, that cutting a relative especially a parent off is hard, it can be a difficult choice, and not the easy way out in any sense.

I don't think my MIL would count me or DP as her supporters or that we let her feel like some victim. Quite the opposite. I think she thinks we are bean and she is misunderstood. You are all right that this is certainly her internal narrative.

I have to admit to being a bit taken aback by the references to low emotional abuse being on the same footing as physical or sexual. I think the reason I see it as lesser is that even the term 'abuse' sounds more active and purposeful than seems the case. I guess abuse is as you experience it but for me a big difference in this case is intent and attitude. We live in a society where by and large physical and sexual abuse are recognised wrongs. Recognised by perpetrators and their victims. Emotional abuse is less obvious, if that makes sense. I can't imagine BIL or Sil2 would accept themselves as having been emotionally abused by their mum. In fact SIL2 (one who is emigrating) would never forgive me if she saw this thread as she loves her mum.

It's absolutely right that the first step HAS to be MIL recognising she is at fault but society doesn't make it as obvious as with other forms of abuse.

Not sure that makes a lot of sense.

YABU, me and my brother don't talk to our 'D'M because of her toxic behaviour which is the result of a terrible childhood in care.

I would love nothing more than to get in contact with her and for every thing to be 'fixed' , but she is too far gone for that.

My DB wont even call her DM. We have to stay away from her as she mentally disturbs us and its carrys on through our familys so we had t walk away.

MIL how ever is very similar to your MIL by the sounds of it and I sort of do what you do by feeling sorry for her and trying to see the good intention but as ive just realised though reading a post that im actually enabling it. That's about to stop.

You can't really feel much sympathy for your MIL as she has had 3 out of her 4 children distance themselves from her and not at any point stopped to wonder what she did wrong. She clearly does not have the capacity to be self-critical and change her ways.

Certain people just will not change, no matter what you do or say to them, and so the only solution for some is to stop contact or reduce it considerably.

If you feel you have the energy and emotional strength to deal with your MIL then that's fine but keep in mind that others may not have your ability to laugh things off or pick themselves up from a bad fight or just have the energy to keep on dealing with drama. Not everyone has the same tolerance threshold.

Why is SIL2 emigrating? Has it got anyting to do with her mum?

Even if BIL and SIL2 dont accept the tern, it is so obvious to see to the rest of us the sorts of things that have gone on.

You are minimising it all big time.
And I am beginning to wonder hugely why this is.
What sort of childhood did you have , ThinkAboutItTomorrow?
Something isnt sitting right here.

I know people think I am cruel and nasty and evil for cutting contact with my Mother.

She plays the perfect, concerned, caring person to everyone else but she, and I both know the truth.

I honestly couldn't give a shit what anyones opinions is about this. I am happier, my kids are happier, and she is quite happy, I believe, milking the sympathy vote because her wicked daughter abandoned her. I can't change my past, but I can, and have, changed my future.

And what job do you do?
Are you something like a counsellor yourself?
Or have some sort of peacemaker job?

Why are we laying so viciously into OP?
Why the black and white thinking?

My situation similiar to many of those described here

I can still see the sadness of the situation, as well as despise the behaviour

I can still see that sometimes people are cut off too quickly

Saying you understand is not saying that you (have to) forgive

We have to be careful, that we don't apply the same simplistic thinking to people as was applied to us

And yes, I have, and still do, hurt enormously from what was done to me

But misery is inherited