To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

paragraph 3.
Dont really understand at all why you went from what I said to saying about women needing more guts than men.
I didnt say that. So not sure why you said it.

I dont think you are misunderstanding me deliberately.
Sorry if I am coming across as grumpy. I probably am grumpy.
But I couldnt just let 3 misunderstandings between us stand.

I am a feminist. I believe in femininity, I believe in my right to stay at home if i want to, do the 'pink' jobs like cleaning and ironing and planting flowers and making cakes and cushions and have doors opened for me.

I am also a masculine and believe in men's right to go out and work, build things, work power tools and be useful with them. To open doors and do the driving.

I also am huge my grateful for the women that fought for my right to vote, go to university, have equal right to property, recourse to violent sexual crimes against me by my husband in a court of law. (though this isn't good enough yet)

I do not like the germaine greer notion of feminism and do not identify with it. I do not wish to denigrate men to empower women. That is reactionary and outdated.

Men need masculism like women need feminism. Men in the lower classes are one of the most oppressed groups of people in society today.

Balance. The notion of feminism needs updating. That's all

So, if (for arguments sake) I am happy with the status quo, don't want any more or any less equality than now, does that make me a feminist or not?

Promqueen - if you want to read that weird kind of triumphalism into my posts, I can't stop you but I would ask you to pause a bit before you attribute emotions to me. So far I have been perplexed, angry and now indulging in triumphalism.

Nothing of the sort. I am engaging in an enjoyable debate.

Of course wheelchair users should have access to all floors of a building. But that isn't the point. You said feminists don't think observable differences between the sexes should be an excuse to discriminate. Your example does not seem to forward your argument. The people applying for the job both have the skills. If one is rejected just for being a women that is wrong. But feminists seem to be saying that differences don't matter? Sorry if I am being thick. But I think this maybe the core as to why so many people have trouble signing up to being feminist.

But I don't see that happening now, around me as an educated woman. And the key is 'educated'.

So I agree with pony. I just cannot feel comfortable angsting about how discriminated I am as a woman when I can identify so many different groupings who suffer manifestly more discrimination than me because they have not had the opportunities I have had.

As an educated middle class woman I don't think I have ever found a door closed to me - unless I wanted to have a bash at ballet or anything requiring two legs.

Glad you have never found a door closed Spero.
I have been wondering that.
I cant remember many threads, if any? where women think they have been discriminated because they are women? I could be wrong, Or just not looked in the right place, or just not noticed?

One of my DDs works surrounded by many men. And learn alongside predominently men. So far, so good. No problems at all.

You are permitted to read 'tetchy' into many of my posts.

Aha! you may have illuminated the problem. I have thought people meant (and I think some of them also thought they meant) that differences should be ignored, when what we must be careful to do is only ignore those differences that aren't relevant - eg, sex, colour, class.

I have no problem referring to strong people, dextrous people etc. I struggle to think of characteristics which are absolutely the property of one sex over the other.

I have no problem accepting that women can be strong and men can love looking after little babies. BUT i can't close my eyes to the reality of the world around me that most men are stronger than most women and most men aren't as keen on child care as most women.

I accept the danger is that we then sweep everyone up into all single categories simply on basis of whether or not they have penis, which of course is wrong.

I worked in banking for ten years and could give you many, many examples of both direct and indirect discrimination. To do that in a meaningful way would both out me and be telling other peoples' secrets, which I don't want to do, so unfortunately you will have to take my word for it. In some industries, in the uk, sexism is cultural, endemic and, frankly, vicious.

I do think however that what happened on this thread is common, that we talk about our own experiences and our own situations. I absolutely agree that as a British woman, with an education and 25 years of a career, I have massive privilege, compared to say the two young women in Pakistan who were recently killed for dancing on a video . That won't stop me expressing my views and exploring my beliefs, but I am aware of my privilege.

Reading papers by female academics may well push me over from 'tetchy' into 'outraged' territory I am afraid.

I usually find I can't understand more than one word in six - and I am not thick so I suspect deliberate obfuscation to make themselves sound cleverer.

If you have got any easy to read links, I will be brave.

Yes, I wouldnt mind a link.
You are slightly jogging my memory about female acedemics. I think they ponder a lot about having children and not getting published or something?

promqueen I think that the privilege of having a choice just might mean that we can enjoy and embrace a discourse that we (as 'feminists') have previously rejected in order to establish choice and equality.

I can use a power tool. Have plastered walls, driven big phat vehicles and schelped about in combat jeans and d.ms with a tool belt.

BUT I like the gendered definition of women and how that fit's with DH gendered definition of man. (we are obviously not as extreme as i have described) but actually..it feels good.

spyro i think actually this is a perspective that has come from not having been oppressed as a women. I wonder if i'd feel the same if I had been brought up in an environemtn where women were oppressed?

Spero. Acedemics have a lot of their own jargon. That may be part of the problem! My DS is one,so I am used to some of the language.

I guess I have been very lucky to have been insulated from any noticeable discrimination. I have found the law pretty meritocratic as a profession.

Ah yes. Jargon. When I am Prime Minister, there shall be LAWS.

The next person for eg who attempts to 'cascade' information at me shall be forced to edit a dense academic journal about feminism.

Reading papers by female academics may well push me over from 'tetchy' into 'outraged' territory I am afraid.

I usually find I can't understand more than one word in six - and I am not thick so I suspect deliberate obfuscation to make themselves sound cleverer.

Sorry - but are you implying that this is because they are written by females?

I admit I haven't caught up with whole thread since earlier- it's too long and I've been too busy today. But just thought I'd look in on 'where we're at now' and this shocks me.