to find it really irritating when people who earn a lot say...

[Doodledumdums]

...But I work really hard for the money I get.

Sorry, totally unimportant, but it really irritates me!

I have a few friends who earn quite a lot of money, and I don't begrudge them this at all, but I just find it really insulting when they say 'But I do work really hard for it.' I also work hard! I feel like it implies that I don't! Okay, I am on maternity leave at the moment, so am not actually at work, (although i'd say that to some extent, looking after a baby is harder than my actual job anyway!) but when I am working, I am usually in the office by 8am, and often don't leave until 7pm, and I earn literally a fraction of what some of my friends earn. That is fine, I knew that when I got in to my chosen industry, but it doesn't mean that I don't work as hard as they do or deserve more!

They don't need to be defensive about it at all! It is totally fine that they earn what they do, I just don't understand why they can't be a bit more gracious about it and say something like 'Yes, I am lucky that I have a job I love which pays well.'

Oh I don't know, maybe I am being unreasonable and ultra-sensitive. I am sure they don't mean to imply that I don't work hard, but it just feels like that sometimes. Totally a first world issue!

P.S- I have self esteem and anxiety issues...which is possibly why I find this upsetting!

[garlicnutty]

Morris, no-one would think to remark that they work hard for their pay unless they're taking a combative stance. Everyone who gets wages, works. It's taken for granted.

[maddening]

how do these conversations about their salaries arise? Why do your friends feel they have to justify themselves to you?

either drop these friends or stop talking to them about their salaries? Might make them feel less awkward and you less resentful.

I am not paid brilliantly but work hard - I don't have this angst nor these conversations - generally you don't talk to friends in depth about their finances.

[TheBuskersDog]

rowtunda there is an element of luck in whether you have the academic ability to go to university etc. Some people no matter how hard they try will never achieve highly academically and that is usually the key to entering highly paid occupations. We don't all have a choice of any occupation as we are not all equally capable of doing any job. Also we need people to do jobs that don't require six years of study but which are important for society to function, shop workers, street cleaners etc.

It's mostly on Mumsnet that I've seen this sort of thing really, as someone else said justifying spending money on things that many can't afford, the attitude that they deserve more money because they studied for so many years etc, and for many on here that university education was free as well.

What's even worse though is when they say my husband works hard for our money while I sit on my arse all day.

[Doodledumdums]

Alis

With all due respect, I do think that luck plays a factor, for a number of reasons. I am not denying the fact that you worked really hard, as did I, but the mere fact that we have been born into a situation whereby education is not only possible, but a right (assuming you are in the UK), means that we are lucky.

I think in the case of my original OP, I am possibly (as I suspected!) being a bit over-sensitive, but I do think that the fact remains that there is an unwritten implication that lower earners/people with less responsibility don't work as hard, and in a lot of cases this is true, but in other cases it isn't!

[Alisvolatpropiis]

maddening my friends and colleagues just ask each other. We're all early/mid 20's. I'm sure that will change when we start pulling away from each other but at the moment we're all earning within 2k of one another.

[morethanpotatoprints]

grumpy

Nobody is any better than you, with the exception of me perhaps and thats only because I think nobody is better than me.
I don't work at all and turned my back on a very well paid career, paying far more than most on here, as was quite famous over 20 years ago. Money means nothing.
You can't take it with you and you can only spend it once.
I am relatively poor now, but rich in so many other ways.
Really, don't give them a second thought, have you ever thought they may be jealous of your lifestyle.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

doodle

But that is a different argument isn't it,that we're lucky to have the opportunity to be educated isn't the same as being lucky to have a job.

The current economic climate is horrendous. I do think that finding a job can be in part luck, purely looking in the right place at the right time,keeping it however is not down to luck.

[BigBoobiedBertha]

OP - YABU. it isn't about you. Your friends aren't making any judgement on you but you are projecting your insecurities on them. Perhaps they are picking up the vibes from you that you disapprove or are jealous of their success?

Garlic, I disagree about the luck. Certainly you were fortunate in a lot of ways in your upbringing and inate abilities but no matter how 'lucky' you are to have them, they would have been pointless without your effort. The driving force behind your good job is the hard work not the luck. You could have messed about at school, dropped out, fallen out with your parents and gone to live in a squat and all that 'luck' wouldn't have meant anything. I don't understand why you down play your effort.

Just as an aside why is it 'vulgar' to talk about money? Do you not think that if we were all a little less secretive and cagey about what we earn, the pay gap between men and women might have been closed by now. As it is, I bet plenty of inequality goes unchallenged simply because people don't tell each other what they earn and they aren't aware that their colleagues are earning more than them.

[Doodledumdums]

Alis I think that finding and keeping a job are both down to luck really. Companies are dissolving all over the place at the moment, and it isn't necessarily the fault of the employees. My brother got made redundant last year because his company lost a huge contract which was basically paying his salary, he had no control over it, and had worked exceptionally hard to get the job, and was working 7am- 1am most days, yet he still got made redundant. Luckily for him, within a week he was offered an even better job and is happier than ever- but a lot of his colleagues weren't.

[Justfornowitwilldo]

'I just don't understand why they can't be a bit more gracious about it and say something like 'Yes, I am lucky that I have a job I love which pays well.'

It's not some odd coincidence that people are in high earning jobs! They (most of them anyway) made a series of deliberate choices that led them there! They could have chosen to do something they enjoyed more that would never really pay well or chosen a job where the responsibility ends when you walk out the door and the hours are set. They could have chosen to have their children younger or be a SAHM.

[Loshad]

Doodle, but that is not always the case. My husband had a shit education and left school at 16 with 1 CSE grade 1 (for younger folk equivalent allegedly to one grade C GCSE). He worked in the local hotel kitchens chopping veg before seeing the light. Whilst working he did some O levels, he then did A levels at local college, whilst working to fund himself. and got a place to read medicine.
5 years later his first job started at 8 am on Friday morning, it was his teams on take weekend and he finished at 10 pm on the monday night having worked almost the entire time , only to be ready for an 8 am start on Tuesday. Luck had nothing to do with where he is now.

[garlicnutty]

BBB, I think you missed my point there. I compared my (old, well-paid) self with my cleaner's husband because we both worked hard and were of similar disposition in many ways. He trained for as long as I did. But I got more brains than him, and a better educational environment. Them's the breaks ... it is luck.

[MorrisZapp]

Totally agree Bertha. Why is it vulgar to discuss money? I know roughly what my friends earn. I got a payrise recently and rushed to tell my sister and best friend, as they would when they get good news.

And I don't see how it is necessarily combative to mention how hard you work. I've got friends who are teachers, they earned lots more than me for a long time, but I know exactly how hard they worked for it and was always sympathetic when they wanted to bitch about their jobs. They weren't justifying anything, just chatting and offloading as we all do.

[Jinsei]

I have no doubt that I work harder in my current job than the people who I line manage, and I have a lot more stress to deal with too. My boss has more than me, and so within our organisation, I think salary probably is a reasonably accurate reflection of effort invested/burden carried.

However, I used to work for a different organisation in a different sector, and I worked way harder than I do now for less than half the salary. It was a charity, and although we didn't get paid a lot, we were motivated by the fact that we were making a difference.

Some types of jobs are just better paid than others, and there some incredibly hardworking people who earn very little. Likewise, there are some very high earners who probably don't do much to deserve it.

Yes, hard work helps you to get good grades in school (if you're lucky enough to have some innate intelligence and access to a decent education). Yes, hard work helps you to get ahead I'm your chosen field (especially if you're lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time). But it's ridiculous and very arrogant to say that there isn't some luck involved in addition to all your hard work. Of course there is!

[garlicnutty]

"better educational environment" would probably have been more accurate as "social environment", tbh. Goes with the education anyway.

[BrianTheMole]

I know what you mean op. i have a friend who has a high earning job. He does work hard, bloody hard, but so do I in my lesser paid job. But somehow my job is perceived as less meaningful and not worth talking about. Apart from the occasional comments about when am I going to get a better paid job.

[UpTheFRIGGinDuff]

YANBU.

I don't hear it from friends,but I do see it on here,and other places online.

DH and I both work,he's a chef and works appallingly long hours,its very stressful and its just him in the kitchen,he has to do everything from ordering food in to buffets to bacon sandwiches to cooking 3 course meals for 60 and the washing up (often all in the same day)

I work part time inbetween his shifts and on his days off,we can't afford childcare (we do have a lovely FIL who has the DC when we are both working)

I honestly don't believe that the people earning 100k work any harder than we do,and it makes me seethe.
I don't care that they earn more,I'd just rather they said "I work hard,luckily within an industry/in a job that pays well" rather than implying that everyone else is just lazy

[MissHC]

I earn more than most of my friends. More than any of my friends if I think of it. I don't earn a fortune (not like some of these 100k+ salaries on here), but very decently for my age. Anyway, I never volunteer how much I earn and when it has come up before I've always said that I'm very lucky and that it's mainly due to me speaking a lot of languages. Also I do feel it's a bit like a lottery because my friends are all as well educated as me (at least to degree level, most are postgrads). And I'd definitely say you have to be very lucky to be given opportunities - like getting invited for a job interview in the first place, especially as a graduate without much experience.

I am fully aware that most people work just as hard, if not harder than me. My DP is on about half my salary and works his ass off as he's in training. He certainly works harder than me and is better educated than me with 2 degrees, a masters and a professional postgraduate qualification.

I am very happy that I've been so lucky and I wouldn't dream of saying "but I work hard for it" as yeah, I do work and long hours etc, but so does everyone else I know. And they've not been so lucky with salary. I agree with you that it does seem to imply that they don't work as hard.

So IMO YANBU.

As for the discussion whether luck plays a part or not, as someone who graduated in 2008 (so just at the start of the crisis), I can tell you that luck nowadays DEFINITELY plays a part. Maybe not so much once you've got experience in a certain field and you're pretty much guaranteed a job interview if you apply for a job, but it really does play a HUGE part if you're applying for jobs together with 100+ other graduates.

To give you my personal example, I'm not saying I'm amazing, however even though I have a masters degree from a very good university and speak 5 languages, when I first graduated I could NOT find a job. I didn't get any interviews. And if I did the response was always either "You're overqualified" (for low level jobs) or "You don't have enough experience" (for higher level jobs). And it was exactly the same for all of my friends who graduated the same time or later, apart from those who happened to know the right person. In the end I managed to find a job in a call centre of all places, where I met DP (with his 2 degrees etc) and worked with lots of other graduates in exactly the same position. Yeah a bunch of idiots worked there too (like the ones you see on the BBC "the call centre"), but most were HARD WORKING, intelligent and educated young people. However we were all on a salary of £13k (including shift work). I earn four times that amount now but I don't work any harder. In fact I find my job a hell of a lot easier than when I worked at the call centre because at least now I don't have to deal with people crying on the phone every day or swearing at me all the time.

Quite different e.g. for my current M.D. He was VERY lucky. Graduated late 90's, got into one of those graduate schemes and has never done anything but management. And his degree (just a bachelors) wasn't even relevant to the field, from a very standard university and he "only" got a 2:1 nor any relevant work experience. Nowadays you would never get into a graduate scheme with those qualifications.

So maybe in the past (before the crisis) it wasn't so much down to luck however now it definitely is.

Sorry for the massive post but I had to get that off my chest.

[AmberSocks]

i have to say yabu,as in some cases,aybe in a lot of cases,those who earn more have sepnt more time working towards where they are today,and still put in a lot of time and effort now.

For example,i KNOW that my husband who owns a large-ish business works harder than the people who are in the warehouse packing books.Firstly there is the fact he puts in more hours than them and also the fact they can go home and mentally switch off from work,he cantits 24/7 for him,so in that case yabu.....

BUT saying that,i dont know each and every persona circumstances,there could be people there who have other jobs,carers,single mums etc,so yanbu.

but in general,i would say someone who has spent a long time studying,working towards and putting time into a rewarding high earning career works harder tan someone in the co-op.

[garlicnutty]

It's not some odd coincidence that people are in high earning jobs! They ... made a series of deliberate choices that led them there! They could have chosen to do something they enjoyed more ... or chosen a job where the responsibility ends when you walk out the door ... They could have chosen to have their children younger or be a SAHM.

That, right there, is what OP meant Supercilious claptrap. Who knew low-paid people were all in jobs they absolutely love? That low pay = no responsibility? And all the happy, low-paid, irresponsible workers dance merrily away from their duties at the end of the day, not a care in the world?

I shan't even touch the have children/SAHM part.

[AmberSocks]

theres no such thing as luck.

[MorrisZapp]

Saying 'I work hard' does not imply anything about anyone else.

If I told you I had eaten a delicious dinner, does that mean I think your dinner was crap?

My DP does work hard. It is fact, not judgement.

[Doodledumdums]

Loshad That is brilliant that your DH did that, and I am not denying that he works exceptionally hard, but he is lucky that he has the intelligence to have been able to do it. It doesn't matter how hard some people work, not everyone has the capabilities to be able to achieve similar things. I worked hard in the area that I was good at, but it wasn't the area that I wanted to be good at, which would have lead me to a great job and money- I just had to follow my capabilities, as do most people, so I think that to a certain extent you are lucky if your capabilities lead you to well paid things.

I also am not sure why it is vulgar to discuss money- it is a fairly important aspect of life! But I guess whether or not you feel comfortable discussing it is down to the individual.