to ask if DC shouldn't bother with university if they can't get into a Russell Group one?

[TuTuTilly]

I'd never heard of the ruddy things before I joined MN. Didn't even realise I'd been to one. I do recall when I had a tedious summer job in Human Resources which included "sifting" job applications for an international firm of accountants, being told to dump any that weren't from a handful of universities.

So my question is; if your child can't get into an RG university - should they accept that they will be unemployable oiks upon graduation and resign themselves to a life working in call centres?

How depressing to think of a world without arts degrees. Only posh, rich families will be able to afford them and our publishers, tv companies etc will be dominated by one type of person.

I think the answer is to make the arts degrees more practical - teach literature but also how to do desk top publishing, blogging, contracts, rights, basic design etc.

And I totally agree about law, this has been the position since I started 20 years ago - a complete glut of people training because they think they will earn mega bucks.

Thus we have to sift. Probably most top firms/Chambers only look at a handful of universities when considering applications.

My message to any teenager wanting to do a law degree is that you have to be really, really sure this is what you want to do. The competition is insane. It seems you only get interviews now if you have first class degree from top university, have worked for US Supreme Court or on death row and won loads of awards.

Yes, if you end up in a field you enjoy it is worth it, but Bar School Fees for eg are now £16,000 pa I think. There is no way I could have even considered being a barrister if I had to pay that.

newgirl - I agree. I think such areas are worth studying, just not for 3 years or more as an academic subject.

The reality is that some of the smaller institutions doing specialist degrees - Nursing, radiography, teaching, paramedic etc, have more students employed the year after graduation than some of the RG or other 'top' universities.

Basing your choice on whether a Uni was represented in a particular hotel on a particular day doesn't mean the course is going to be great.

Well d'oh, if you make your choice based on the fact your university had a nice stand at a hotel, then you deserve all you get.

It is not that difficult to compare and contrast the different ranking tables and find that, although there are differences, the same institutions come out in the top ten time after time.

I can only speak for law. Obviously if my daughter wanted a more niche field, she would need to research where was best.

I have a degree in a very fluffy subject from an RG uni. I now have a very well paid job in an area completely unrelated. Why not do a subject you enjoy for the sheer enjoyment off it. Your life and career won't be dead in the water because of it.

Because things are different now!!

You have to balance your 'sheer enjoyment' against the pretty hefty cost and it is only going to get worse.

I wouldn't have enjoyed studying in London if I had thought I would have a massive great mill stone of debt around my neck before I had even finished training.

I agree, baby heave. In the 80s everyone was Business Studies-mad. It was tacked on to every flippin' degree. I'm sure someone somewhere was doing Classics & Business Studies.

Did all those people become Top Management Consultants? Nah.

"Picking a subject ....which you are not that great at, are unlikely to do well at, and can only get into a not great institution to study, is also likely to be a very daft course of action."

Do you think that is what I was recommending Russians? I didn't think such a thing would need stating. My actual opinion now is that it would make much more sense if young people didn't rush into studying anything until they have a fair idea what they are interested in, what they are capable of and will lead them onto a life path that they desire. Making the correct choices at 17/18 is a bit hit and miss.

I am of an age where my own , my siblings' and my friends' children are applying, studying and graduating. There is still very much the idea that university is what you do after after school. It is very scary, after 18 years of having your path predetermined and given the current youth employment situation to consider not going to university. It seemed obvious to me that one of my own DC was going because he couldn't face thinking of not going. He went, dropped out after one year, had a working year and then started on 'the right degree'. Luckily funding allows one false start like this. His GF ploughed on with her disliked degree and is now fairly stuck career wise.

It's not a massive millstone round the neck though not really. The majority of this years students will never pay off their student loans they will end up being written off.Yes it's a lot but the structure for repayment is not that bad. The fees and repayments didn't put off any of dd1's circle of friends. Dd1 knows she will leave uni with 50k of debt but just views repaying it as an extra tax ie she only repays over a certain income, if she's earning enough to notice the repayments then the cost is worth it.

DS1 is 11 and we are already starting to talk to him about possible careers. Unfortunately I can just do a subject for the love of it without a gameplan for a future career is long gone unless you have access to a trust fund. Approx 20% of jobs in UK require a degree but we had up to 40% of dcs going to university so a lot of those dcs are never going to land a graduate job. I'm all for dcs following their passions and studying a subject which they'd enjoy but as parents we need to help them make realistic choices such as: is the course content good? how is the teaching rated? Quality of the lecturers?, post graduate research?, employability of past students? If not a vocational course what further study/ internship may be needed to get employment? Possible future earnings?
All this might sound mercinary but even in my lifetime I have seen how much more competitive the job market is with lots more international candidates esp from EU and lots more people with degrees

Student debt becomes a huge millstone if/when someone wishes to study something else. Who wants to accept early on that they just will never be able to repay? It is much more likely that a new career direction will be sought.

Unfortunately the idea that you can

I agree with babyheave. Do a degree for the love of it because for a lot of jobs that require a degree, the subject doesn't much matter - the degree is just an indicator that you have had a decent education and you have a brain. For a lot of jobs you either study for a professional job qualification like accountancy or you learn on the job.

Yes some jobs require a specific degree like medicine or engineering but many don't.

I also agree with jack365 about the debt. I don't think it would put me off either and I came from a working class background and got a grant so it isn't like debt wouldn't have been an issue and I could have relied on the bank of mummy and daddy. Speculate to accumulate and all that. You don't have to pay it back until you are earning properly with the increased earning potential that the degree has given you, and then repayments are on very favourable terms.

The point was though that in the greater scheme of things it really doesn't matter. If someone qualifies then 5 years later decides to do something else because there are no jobs they aren't stopped by having student debt, they would need to fund it themselves whether there was debt or not. Student debt has no bearing on getting a mortgage or car loan. I think this system will be too expensive long term and won't be around long but I don't think it's as bad as people really think with regards to repaying. It is possible though that my view is biased because I expect my dd to pretty much walk into a graduate job on leaving and to start out over the threshold to repay but that is down to her subject.

I totally agree if you LOVE something - go for it.

But at least from my memories of my cohort in early 90s, none of us LOVED anything. We were all too young and stupid to know what we wanted. A lot of people were doing degrees because their parents pushed them into it or they couldn't think of anything else to do.

I think getting into any kind of big debt for anything less than a serious interest in your field is just silly.

You're right jacks, my point was badly made. It is not the debt itself that stops you studying something further but it may well be not having the new study funded that makes it impossible.

Oh NO! My niece's first was from a non RG University. Does that mean her place on a fast-track graduate programme and the 2 promotions she's had since then are worthless? I'd best not tell her.

Babyheave I don't know when you did your degree but 20 years ago only 10% of the population went to university so despite your degree subject/ class you had a certain rarity value. Nowadays with 40% heading to university institution/degree subject/ class are all used to sift out job candidates. If you really love your subject / instituition by all means go for it but bear in mind you could end in a non graduate job, on a low wage and a big debt

But Spero, what about all the jobs that require you to have a degree but don't care which one it is so long as you have one? You seem to be suggesting that people don't do a degree unless it is highly vocational or you love the subject but that completely misses out all the people who have done degrees in a subject they enjoy and are good at and have got jobs off the back of having a degree, regardless of what it is in.

When I did my degree you couldn't for example do chartered accountancy unless you had a degree (small exception for some sort of pre training course you did for a year at a poly and then a longer training contract) but nobody cared what your degree was in. That still applies to plenty of jobs.

Also, I went to university to do law and economics and become a lawyer. I didn't do that in the end, not for the lack of interest in the subjects, I just decided to do something else. I don't think anybody should worry unduly about doing that. Having a degree opens doors and doors that you might not have thought of at 18. Why not do a degree and see where it takes you rather than expecting people to chose their life's work at the age of 18? It will most likely do more good than harm and make a quantifiable difference to your earning potential so the debt becomes less relevant.

Sorry, I have made it clear I can only speak for law with any knowledge - it is all I have done for 20 years.

But what are these jobs that require a degree but don't care which one?

I think in the current climate this is going to be a luxury a lot of businesses can't afford. If I was running a business I wouldn't want some mediocre graduate in any old thing of some middle ranking university. I would either want to train someone up in the ways of my business or I would want someone who had done a tough disclipline at a well regarded institution.

All I am saying is that 'follow your heart' now carries a cost which it did not before. If you can be sanguine about a £50K, debt, good for you. I know I couldn't.

I don't see anything wrong with encouraging people to have a clear head about what they want to do with their lives. I am emphatically NOT saying that only university can provide you with a great life, in fact I have been saying the opposite.

But not thinking about where you are going or what you are good at may not have a great outcome. You may be lucky and find yourself writing plays, but you are far more likely to end up like my brother. Fine, if that is what you want out of life but I certainly wanted more/different and worked hard to get it.

Seem to recall one daughter deciding at 15 what she wanted to do as a career and working backwards to make her A level subject choices, her sister started even younger ie checking uni requirements before choosing her gcses. Neither have changed what they want to do and both are playing to their strengths but they have also chosen careers which require specific degrees that are universally respected. Some dc do know what they want early.

SperoI really do think your brother (who you seem very down on) is a complete red herring. Everyone who does an English degree is not going to end up in a bedsit in Finsbury Park. There are not that many bedsits in Finsbury Park to go round!

I disagree that there are plenty of jobs that require someone to just have a degree, no matter what subject field it is in. In those that do exist, there if often an option for non-graduates to do a year long 'catch up' course (at a fraction of the cost of a degree).

I actually think this impression has come from the influx of recruitment agencies and the new mindsets of HR teams and is their easy (lazy) way of making sure candidates meet some form of minimum requirements.

I also wonder about studying something just because you love it. I love clothes and shoes but wouldn't pay 30k to spend 3 years of my life studying it because I have no desire to have a career in that field. Perhaps if you have a strong passion for something there would be other ways to indulge it than go to university - courses, exhibitions, self-research, reading etc.?

This is speaking with the situation as it is right now. I think it is such a shame that university has become like this. Essentially, I believe university should be for the academically elite. I do think all fields should be on offer including art, english, business studies... but only those who are very clever and passionate should be studying.

It is now just the 'done thing' for children to go to university. When I was at school looking at the options (not so long ago) even the students struggling with the work and obviously not particularly clever or study-orientated were told 'oh don't worry, we'll find a course for you'.

What it boils down to to me is that you either fon't do a degree in case you end up in a low paid job and it was all pointless (though don't forget you don't have to pay back the loan if it is that badly paid). Or you don't do a degree unless you know exactly where it is leading which will guarantee you spending your life in a deadend job with few prospects and options. For all the Alan Sugars and Richard Bransons doing well without s degree there are millions more who din't do well and have effectively limited rhe opportinities for life.

Jobs for which a dpecific degree is mot a requirement - accountacy as I say, Plenty of graduate management programmes, things like HR or sales where further qualifications are necessary but where a degree will give you a boost careerwise. My Sil and cousin both arr HR professions with completely irrelevant degrees.