to ask if DC shouldn't bother with university if they can't get into a Russell Group one?

[TuTuTilly]

I'd never heard of the ruddy things before I joined MN. Didn't even realise I'd been to one. I do recall when I had a tedious summer job in Human Resources which included "sifting" job applications for an international firm of accountants, being told to dump any that weren't from a handful of universities.

So my question is; if your child can't get into an RG university - should they accept that they will be unemployable oiks upon graduation and resign themselves to a life working in call centres?

Spero I haven't even remotely suggested that universities aren't ranked by employers. That would be a bit foolish given that I am part of a recruitment process some years. In fact, I have stressed that universities are ranked but that the vanity label 'RG' is not the thing which matters in the ranking.

I am addressing the thread, not individuals, so apologies if you thought I was having a go at you.

I'd love my DD to go to Uni and do English Spero - she's really beginning to love English, and that's what her cousin is doing too. She also loves biology and likes history and geography as well. Also interested to do something which would help her work with animals. Something in the environmental sciences could be a possibility ?
I think you should think very, very carefully about advising your DD to think v. v carefully before going to Uni to do an Arts subject Spero !
It could be a good option for her ?!

My son in law went to a Uni not on that list. He got a 1st in Accountancy, and has worked for an international firm of accountants and two major banks.He commands a salary that I can only dream about so think what Uni you went to is a load of crap personally

I will continue to doubt it. If you are passionate about literature, 3 years at university will probably put a dent in that - I certainly felt that way about A level English... I can't think of Shakespeare or George Eliot now without feeling irritated and bored.

Yes, I am well aware that mummy's words of wisdom may probably force her into the arms of Beowulf but it won't be on my money! So she will need to think how she pays for tuition fees down the line.

She'd pay for them out of her earnings once she was earning over a certain level of salary

I find it scary too, but am trying to be brave so my DCs can enjoy the same benefits of a Uni education and lifestyle in their early twenties as I did

morebeta I didn't say that I thought it was the right decision, just that I can understand, the more so since I know how good the programme is and the aspirations the board have for it, it is an IB that has a strategy of inclusivity and fairness (absolutely no chance of DH swinging internships for sons of friends for instance) and knowing the back stories of the candidates. To be honest I think their big mistake is going into an IB at all at the moment. I don't think we have seen the biggest shake up of the industry by a long chalk, they are still sitting on a powder keg and giving off sparks......

After ten years, I don't think my brother has paid off his student load because he doesn't earn much. He lives in bed sit and walks to work.

I am certainly not knocking that lifestyle if you are happy with it. Nor did he have to borrow shed loads as he got tuition free.

But from what I can see it will be £30K per year for my daughter to go and study in ten years, unless she lives with me and gets a part time job at same time.

I really feel strongly that some degrees are not worth that. If you love literature, writing etc, that is something you can enjoy all the time in your day to day life: if you live in a city or big town there are libraries, talks, festivals, etc,etc.

Paying thousands to 'deconstruct' literature is not money I consider worth spending. If my daughter wants to do it, so be it, she will be an adult by then. But I hope she makes that choice because she genuinely wants to, not simply because she can't think of anything else to do and 'everyone' is going to university.

I think you have to look at Uni debt as similar to a mortgage - plenty of people spend a lifetime paying their mortgage off and don't feel especially indebted by having one. Or, as many people have suggested, as like a graduate tax.
Also at 18 it can be very difficult to know which direction to go in regarding life and career. I think going off to Uni because everyone else is, and as Russian said "to see what the world looks like" remains a pretty good option.

I also agree that you can't discount the value of education for education's sake. I have one DD doing Science (at one of the very top unis) who pretty much has her future employment assured providing her fully funded internship this summer goes to plan but that is not why I am pleased and proud, it is because she is doing what fascinates and interests her and I can see how fulfilling and satisfying it is for her and that I have some how still managed to instil in her also an appreciation of the fulfilment and satisfaction that can be gained from literature and culture too.

DD2 is completely different, her strengths lie in empathy, emotional intelligence and creativity, she is not going to find a cure for cancer or go near a top 4 accountancy firm or city law firm. She is even contemplating History of Art as a degree. If only that she will get three years to indulge her intellectual interests we are supporting her, and who knows? Someone has to run art galleries? curate exhibitions? Just as long as she applies to the top unis that access those employment prospects, the top one isn't, of course, RG.

Of course there will continue to be jobs in 'arty' fields but they are usually not well paid. This is the new horrible reality for our children - no more free degrees.

I agree that we take out mortgages on places to live but we usually want them to be quite nice places with a roof that doesn't leak etc. I want a return on my investment - I would have got into debt, indeed I did get into debt, for my degree and subsequent training as it got me a job that pays well and is interesting. Had I gone done the Eng Lit route I am not so sure I could have achieved both.

I think we are entering a very different world and hard decisions have to be made about whether or not ending up with 30K debt will be worth it for an English literature or History of Art degree.

I have very strong feelings on school leavers going on to university especially with the new tuition fees. It's a subject close to my heart with many of my friends and family members struggling with the repercussions of their choices now. My rule is not about which university someone attends, it is about the course they are studying.

I would strongly suggest that at the moment someone only goes to university if they are studying a specialist course, where you can only enter the profession having completed a degree in the subject area. E.g. medicine, science, engineering, psychology etc.

I graduated from a specialist course and am now employed in a job I would never have got without my degree. I have 20k+ student debt but every penny was worth it. My current income and future income warrant paying this initial outlay.

However, I have graduate friends (with 1:1s 2:1s) who are entering jobs at often the same level as non-graduates and seeing no 'fast-track' routes through to higher levels.

Slightly different but 2 of my friends (both the same age) give a great example for people debating whether to go to university: A left school at 16 and joined a company at entry level. B went through university and joined a company at 'graduate level'. A and B are now at the same level within their company and get paid the same amount of money. A has their own car, rents a house and has lots of savings in the bank. B is living at their parents', has 19k debt and not a penny in the bank.

Agree strongly.

This is a deeply depressing thread. Although I'm sure it would be pleasing to old Gradgrind.

Well, there is depressing and there is realistic.

I am sure all of us who went to university in the 90s can remember a fair few of our compadres who literally pissed their degrees up walls and had no real interest in what they were studying.

Part of me thinks it is no bad thing for people to concentrate more on why they want to go and what they want to do with their degree.

University is not the only path to a happy, fulfilled, interesting life and I think it is very wrong sighted of various governments to push it as though it is. Wasn't it Steve Jobs or someone similar who told a load of Harvard undergrads that they were 'already failures'? i.e. anyone with any gumption and real intelligence was already out there in the real world being an entrepreneur etc.

Of course there will be a number of rich people who won't have to worry and their children can carry on doing interesting degrees with no immediate practical application to life. I agree that isn't fair but the solution to that is not to pay so that everyone can do interesting, but pretty useless, degrees.

Spero what do you classify as a useful degree?

A degree that you need to get you to the next stage - law, medicine etc.

That is worth spending money on.

A degree learning about books or pictures, not so much. I had more fun and learned much more in 3 weeks at the Bristol Festival of ideas last year than I did in 2 years of English and History A levels, plus tickets for talks were under £10.

Of course a life without books, art and photos etc is not a life I want to lead. Just not remotely convinced those subjects are worth academic study over many years with a massive price tag attached.

The point has been made many times in this thread but I do think it would be useful if posters gave some idea in their examples of when the brilliant career commenced that didn't require a top university/grade/subject. I think the current climate for fresh graduates is totally different to a decade ago.

I'm now of the view that if you must study something arty then it had better be at a very top institution. Apart from the huge debt I think students should consider that they will not be funded at all if at some future point they wish to study a vocational/different degree. This getting a degree is a one time deal unless you are very lucky (rich)and very dedicated (OU etc). Just picking your best subject so you can go to university at 18 may end up being a very daft thing to do.

Picking a subject which the minions of orthodoxy deem acceptable, but which you are not that great at, are unlikely to do well at, and can only get into a not great institution to study, is also likely to be a very daft course of action. As is predicating your life choices on a model which is all but washed up now.

But of course. Hence my point that you need to think long and hard about what you WANT to do, what you CAN do and what is available.

I did consider an Eng Lit degree in 1989, when my degree course would have been funded - I also got £500 a term maintenance from my LA which of course has been unheard of for quite some time.

If your child has a passion for something, is well aware of the pitfalls and still wants it then you would be a fool not to support them with all you have, as such passions are rare.

But did my brother have sufficient passion for Eng Lit to make a Finsbury Park bed sit and crappy admin job for the council a enjoyable payback? I don't think so.

Spero I have a friend from my uni days who read English, who is now an award winning playwright. I'm not saying he is a more valid comparator than your brother, but he is an equally valid comparator. Your brother may have had many factors influencing his life choices and his opportunities. The choice of Essex university for a start will have set him on a certain path. Dismissing every other person who might want to read English because you think your brother's life isn't all that is somewhat foolish, no? There may be people who think your life isn't all that. Your brother may be one of them.

Every other kid I speak to is doing/wants to do Law. We are going to be overrun with lawyers - or rather, people with Law degrees. I have a nasty feeling it's set to become the new Media Studies, a degree so embarrassing that someone I know actually omits to mention they went to university rather than admit to their degree.

Might as well study something you actually like rather than trying to second guess employment prospects some years down the line.

I heard an interesting item on Woman's Hour some time ago urging kids to health check their chosen career if they were doing vocational degrees. Traditional print journalism is down the pan, and so will be grunt legal work.

Its equally unhelpful to offer up your friend who writes plays as an example of what is likely or even achievable after an English literature degree.

I bet there are not many people earning a decent living from writing plays whereas there are lots of people doing jobs like my brother. Why end up in such a job AND have a massive student debt around your neck too?

that's all I am saying. He only had student loans of a few thousand, the state paid his tuituion fees. I think he would consider his position a lot more carefully if his degree hadn't been free.