Am I being a sanctimonious nobber re: Daily Mail?

[Undertone]

OK - so I know I shouldn't have but I read Liz Jones' latest piece of trash in the Mail on Sunday website today. I won't link, but to paraphrase: she feels entitled to use the emergency services (a&e, fire brigade) for trivial reasons (removing an earring, a stuck kitten) because she 'pays her taxes' and goes private for most things anyway. The piece ended on a note saying she admired Stephen Fry's bravery - NOT for talking about his suicide attempt but for the fact that he tried to do it with pills. I know - WTF?!

Anyway - she's a sadly limited woman used as a troll to drive DM traffic. But something in me snapped today.

Casual acceptance of the bigoted, chauvinistic, entitled and sometimes downright dangerous opinions she and other DM columnists get published is toxic. Yes there are lots of people that protest, and the DM editors rub their scaly hands with glee at all the attention it gains them, but outside of the Twitter and outraged lefty bubble there are millions of people who read it and go "oh - that's a published opinion. Must be legit." And by tiny increments flawed, lazy and insular patterns of thought become ever more embedded.

Anyway - (I AM getting to the point) I don't have many friends on Facebook - quite a tight group really - and I posted a status about how I'd had it with the DM and the next time somebody admitted to reading it I would challenge them about it (meaning, really, someone in a pub or at work).

So who should bloody pop up and comment on this status but one of my good female friends (she and I are going on hol together in a few weeks, just the 2 of us) saying "I am a DM reader and proud - sorry!"

A bit of context - I love her to pieces and I have known her for about 13 years now. She and I have clashed on issues before (she doesn't believe in feminism, and thinks it is unfair to men - I have had to start avoiding the subject with her now because she doesn't accept my beliefs and won't let it go when an argument has run its course).

I want to challenge her about it, I want to explain to her why (from an outsider POV as a non-DM reader) I find it such an offensive newspaper and feel so strongly about it. It would be best if I just picked up the phone to her now and had a discussion - but is that weird? I mean - posting a flippant FB remark and then someone ringing you up to argue about it? Should I send her an email?

Crucially I want to explain myself without insulting her so that the holiday isn't awkward. But it was a surprise that she reads the DM and I do unfortunately think a bit less of her. This is what I am worried will come out in a spat.

Help - AIBU to challenge her? Maybe she missed all the terrible stories I've seen Can you help me with some links to send her?

i brought it up in the foyer at the cinema when we were about to go in

I have to know the film. It isn't sinister - I like Pretty Woman and all sorts of non PC stuff, including films featuring violence against women, as part of the plot.

It should reassure women 'who don't agree with feminism' that you can have all sorts of tastes and still agree with the vote and staying at home with your babies. But somehow it doesn't.

Just to deviate from the main topic for a moment, I've now read the Liz Jones article and I find myself slightly disturbed by it. I assume the stuff about the emergency services is written just to get a reaction, and she probably thinks she's being funny. I don't know. But then that throwaway paragraph at the end about wanting to commit suicide (just before an even more throwaway line about the anteater) - what are to make of that? A cry for help? A statement of fact? I wonder what her editors make of it? I know you can't force someone to get psychiatric help but she sure as hell sounds like she needs it.

No the mat leave thing was more like she doesn't see the problem with companies who don't want to hire women who are about to start a family. She is a manager in an office and apparently mat leave and women with small kids needing short-notice time off is a bit of a headache to deal with.

I apologised for sending her that Guardian link earlier (she said she hadn't read it anyway) and we're going out for a drink next week to look through the travel guide for our hol destination and plan some of our itinerary. So it's obvious I don't want to make a real fight of it, but if she brings it up then maybe I'll say something. i don't know. I'm a wuss, really.

Bacon - she believes in equality between genders, and everyone generally just being nice and fair to one another, but 'Feminism' as a movement she sees as pointless and man-hating. It's tough to argue with her because I agree with her on the universal equality thing, but I also agree with the value of identifying women's discriminatory issues and trying to address these in a targeted, tactical way. Stuff like portrayal of the women in the media as either naked fuckable bimbos or hags (no in-between) she says "just ignore it, it doesn't affect you, Undertone." Drives me bonkers!

Limited - I think the film was Bridesmaids - haha!

hackmum - that baffled me too. Was it some kind of lumbering attempt at off-the-wall levity? As in "lol I'm going to kill myself before I'm 50"?

Does anyone at the DM editorial team read this stuff before it goes out?

What is the point of saying something to her? She's made it abundantly clear that she doesn't agree with you and doesn't want to be talked round. Either leave it and base your friendship on the things you do have in common or just say you can't deal with it and end the friendship.

But you're never going to bully the whole world into agreeing with you on everything. Personally I'm of the opinion that a circle of friends who all share the same opinion and concur absolutely on all issues would be incredibly dull. But you sound like you would at least like to have an inner circle that wouldn't disagree with you. If you can't deal with someone having a different opinion end the friendship - but don't expect her to change what she thinks and reads purely to suit you.

BridgetBidet sums up my viewpoint entirely, and couldn't have put it better myself.
Well said.

Does anyone at the DM editorial team read this stuff before it goes out?

Presumably from mignonette's 'work makes you free' link they don't.

I think the truth is that a lot of people are really fucking stupid, including your friend who works in recruitment or HR, or the people here who can't work out that it is valuable to businesses to have all sorts of people working for them, whether high-flying, astronomically-paid mummies or the vast majority who are just people who want to be employed at a decent hourly rate that suits them and their employer.

Bridget... I obviously can deal with someone that has a different opinion to me being a friend, as for a number of years now my friend has made it clear that she and I think differently about feminism. To each their own, although I find it baffling.

This thread started because I KNOW she can wrangle like a good'un during an opinion-based discussion, and I wasn't sure whether to open that can of worms with her to find out what it was about a gay-bashing, xenophobic, libelous publication that she so much liked. It's curiosity - if she had no earthly idea that the money she was giving the newspaper was being spent on the salaries of journalists like Liz Jones, then it's up to her whether she's cool with that. I dunno - again I'm baffled and I want to know if she has all the facts.

Again I think you're projecting behaviours on to me that I don't think I inhabit. I'm not a bully (this whole thing is about questioning, not trying to forcefully change an opinion - I can challenge people; that's not an attack, is it?) and I think the world would be very dull if we all agreed with one another - so [speaks very slowly] that's why I came here for a spectrum of opinions.

And your posts have made me think, and help clarify how I feel about this issue. Especially the political vs. non-political aspect. Thanks!

Maybe she is being as goady as your FB post could be read as.

The DM is absolutely vile. Personally, I've always been a The Guardian reader, but DH reads the Times. My mum reads the DM and takes it seriously (probably why she told people i was getting married in a 'temple' and not a gurdwara ). The DM promotes hate and intolerance, with a particularly worrying attitude towards women. Apparently a woman having 'saggy knees' is a crime and a woman who waits until she's older to have children is 'risking seriously disabled children and won't be healthy enough to bring them up' whilst younger mothers are 'drains on society and likely to not give their children a unstable homelife'. And the DM loves to report a suspect's race/religion, when it has no relevance to the crime they're reporting on.

I read the DM online and get outraged. Most of the time by the pap they print.

I tend to put my point across on their comments pages, mostly to be red arrowhead because of some of the bump ties that read it and believe it.

I do not believe everything I read, and I think you are being unfair on a lot of readers to think they do.

But if the best defence of the DM is that 'no-one believes what the paper says anyway' that seems to be missing the point of the fact journalists are being paid to say these horrible things?

All i want to make sure of is that the people i meet who read the DM are fully aware of its more extreme content. If they are, so be it, if they're not, then they can make up their own mind.

So undertone, what you are saying is that you want to tell people what is acceptable. Whilst I agree the Littlejohn or Liz Jones are objectionable, who are you to tell someone that views made in certain articles are extreme? It is just your view. Are you not as bad as the DM in that you ate forcing your views on others?

I've never 'met' anyone who comments to Mail Online

How is homophobia or chauvinism not an extreme view? How is bringing someone's attention to it forcing my views on others?

Bed time now. To be continued anon.

The DM puts my blood pressure right up (with anger) so i avoid reading it if possible now.

I saw a copy at work earlier; left open at a page with Yet Another article about Women Crying Rape.

You'd think that all men were innocent and all women were predatory liars the way the DM goes on!!!! (Yes, my BP is going up with stress just typing that!)

Undertone. For tomorrow. By "bringing it to the attention of the reader" are you not taking the moral high ground and assuming that the reader either does not have the capability of seeing the fact that a story is extreme or that they are somehow inferior to you as they agree with the story.

Yes, some stories may be homophobic or chauvinistic. But then 2 stories on you will find a story with a view that is completely the opposite.

And does it not occurs to you that your views may not always be the one that the majority agrees with?

I do think that chauvinists, homophobes and racists are inferior to me, yes. They can have some of that prejudice right back at them.

My friend could have totally missed those stories. I'm not calling her thick by pointing out stuff she hasn't even seen. The DM condones publishing this stuff under the same banner as all the 'normal' stories, but the whole is tainted by the promotion of a few fringe opinions.

A racist may have a valid opinion on the economy, a sports match or the best way to grow a courgette, but by financially supporting said racist to listen to those opinions, you're also supporting their ability to continue being a racist.

But where do YOU draw the line at racism? Am I racist because I believe that we should limit immigration as our services are at full stretch?

The point I am getting at ( quite clumsily as normal lol) is what makes you the moral guardian of us all, and more importantly what makes your view the correct one.

This is all said in a questioning rather than aggressive way

No that's not racist. It's not the belief that a human being is inferior due to the colour of their skin.

Coincidentally, some people who do believe immigration should be limited also hold racist beliefs, but they are not precisely the same belief, no.

Um... I wouldn't call myself a moral guardian. I do think that turning the other cheek to damaging, prejudiced views that don't serve a public discourse on political issues is wrong, and I would like to take the opportunity to call people out on casual acceptance of them.

I don't think this issue is about me and my personal beliefs at all. Surely we shouldn't have to justify why we are against articles inciting hatred and which question basic civil rights? Have I gone back in time? Are we in North Korea or something?

I appreciate your questioning, and I hope you are appreciating my responses

I don't read DM, but used to read the odd article when free copies where around the gym. I don't like the things it stands for at all, but must admit that if I saw someone had posted that on Facebook I would absolutely think they were a self righteous knob.

In my mind, having a one to one conversation/discussion about it with someone would be different to a blanket post on FB as long as they were up for it.

By your descriptions of your discussions with your friend, it sounds as though you are just as tenacious as her in your views - it's just that seems ok to you because you agree with yourself! (For what it's worth, so do I).

Undertone. I'm sorry, but I'm finding it hard to take what you're saying seriously. Anyone who holds such views wouldn't be seen dead reading the daily mail, ( least of all Liz Jones ) it's the height of hypocrisy don't you know.

Navada - i like to know my enemy.

To be fair, i have a v biased view of DM because i only read the bits that really piss me off, after someone flags a certain article to me.