to think that expensive school trips should be banned

[Nicola10]

Year 8 pupils have, today, left for a school trip to France. Very exciting for them, yes, considering that they will be going to a theme park, as well as educational stuff. But, for the rest of the kids, whose parents could not afford it, including my twins, they have to do normal lessons.

The cost for each child is £400 each!

Lionessy, I agree. Some of posts have been quite an eye-opener.

I'm in 2 minds about this.

On the one hand they do 3(!) residentials in DS2's junior school where everybody is encouraged to go and there are very few children who don't go for whatever reason. Only the first trip in yr 4 is totally curriculum based, the others are supposed to be good experiences and foster independence (not sure how). Because everybody goes, I don't think it is fair on the ones who then can't go for whatever reason. The school are trying to subsidise it so that every child goes on the yr 4 trip which is fine but the other 2 trips leave a significant minority out. I wish they would do less trips and make sure that everybody could go.

On the other hand, in the secondary school, such a small number of children get to go on the expensive residential trips that I don't think it is such a big issue if children can't afford to go - plenty of children who can afford it won't be going either.

To me it makes a difference whether the child is in a minority or not by not going - nobody wants their child to stand out for the wrong reasons - but none of us can do everything we want. We do have to learn to deal with it but I don't begrudge a few the chance to go on a trip.

You are right Bacon it would be bad to not have any trips at all.

Unfortunately all trips cost money unless kids go somewhere local that is free to enter or some kind of public space. Schools have budgets to cover some trips but they tend to be quite basic due to limited budgets.

When you involve money it seems that people's idea of 'expensive' becomes too difficult to nail down. When I was a kid my mum couldn't even afford £50 so that would have been too expensive and I would have been excluded.

The OP thinks £400 is too much and with twins is unaffordable (fair enough). Yet £400 for the rest of the class could well be fine, given they only have one child to pay for. Ok, so I guess there could be limits placed upon the cost of trips but what if a parent has three kids in different years, all three have trips that cost £100 and this is unaffordable?

I'm just trying to consider the scenario whereby schools should be 100% inclusive and it seems to me that it's an impossible dream, unless no parents pay and the school funds all trips. But then we'd fund these indirectly through taxation.

The simplest option therefore would be to ban all trips that require parental funding. I hate the very idea of it but if schools MUST be all inclusive then surely that's the only feasible outcome?

Technotropic - I disagree that governors have much say on whether residential trips go ahead.

They might have a say in whether they are subsidised from school funds or join a discussion about the number of trips that are run but it is up to the head and the teachers if they want to run a trip. The governors can't stop them and, if it is anything like our governing body, you will probably find you are in a minority anyway. I know I am for wanting to cut back on the number of residentials in a junior school.

BigBoobied

Governors can put forward the wishes of the parents whilst those responsible for finance can influence the head on matters of spending.

No you cannot dictate or force an issue to suit your own agenda but you have a lot more say and ability to express concerns than any one parent. If you canvassed the opinion of parents and it was unanimous that these trips were not wanted then I very much doubt a head would run them.

However, by your comments you are in a minority so am assuming that most parents are happy with the status quo.

If a trip was £20 some would complain they couldnt afford it. Its not good to try and drag people down to the lowest common level and say 'well if I cannot afford it - then no one can go'. If the trips werent attractive to the majority then they would be cancelled or not offered in the first place.

My DM volunteers in a school having being a teacher for 40 yrs. There are plenty of parents claiming they cannot afford this, that and the other and who dont turn up to Parents Evenings because they cannot be bothered. The average turn out at Mum's school,is less than 50% for these sorts of events. They take a large number of immigrant families She takes in a loaf of bread when she attends to give something to the kids whose parent (and sadly it is often a single parent) who cannot be bothered to get out of bed to give their child breakfast. Are we talking about those sorts of parents who claim they cannot 'afford' something for their children (including breakfast!)

Yes, we did a survey and most parents that replied, which wasn't a very high percentage of the total number of parents in the school, waxed lyrical about how great the residentials were. I was almost totally alone in my belief that they weren't necessary or the great experience they were made out to be (and we can afford them).

That is the only way the governors can know the wishes of the parents though. Parent governors are representative of the parents not for the parents and try as I might I can't stop the HT alone if the only evidence from the parents is supporting her. We do have a small influence on the spending but ultimately, she is using the pupil premium to makes sure that the children who can't afford it get to go in Yr 4 which is exactly what it is for - to make sure they aren't disadvantaged. It also happens to the be most curriculum based and the shortest so there isn't much we can do to stop it happening.

'Life isn't fair'

..no but school should be!

Where do we draw the line though. I would love to travel Business Class. Sadly I cannot. Do I then demand that no one can? I educate my children privately. If others cannot afford it does that mean that private education should be banned. I drive a BMW. If others cannot afford it does that mean we should all be stopped from buying one.

Xylem8, you should put some emphasis on the word "should" because that is the operative word.

Life should be fair (but it isn't)
There should be world peace (but there isn't)
Kid's should not go to school hungy (but they do)

etc

Our (STATE) school does world challenge trips ringing in at about £4,000 for 3 weeks.They get round the divisiveness of this by saying that the children fund raise for it themselves.I find it very doubtful that a 15 yrold can raise £4000 in 12 months , and in any case the parents have to underwrite it.They have to give their credit card details which will be debited for the instalments and then it's up to the kids to pay the parents back if they raise any money.

..and the mad thing is that about 50% of the kids go!

Why is the rest of her post bollocks, MrsDeVere?

Why would her mum be lying about having to bring in a loaf of bread for some of the children?

I don't understand why school trips are so very expensive. We travel quite a bit as a family and we also send our DCs to summer camp, we ski in the winter etc, and we certainly don't skimp, so we are used to spending money on travel. But some of the school trips are outrageously poor value for money. Why?

MrsDeVere so what's she lying about? the fact is, a few parents, and yes only a few, actually don't give a shit

Its true Mrs DeVere. DM just thinks bringing a loaf of bread and making a bit of toast is a small contribution. Are you saying that all parents are caring? Some arent. She works in an area of London which sees its fair share of problem families. Families who dont give a dam, who put themselves first - always, who dont bother to turn up to Parents Evening because tbh - they dont care.

Of course you can pretend those families dont exist. And then we get the tragic cases reporting recently of child abuse. And I am sorry, I am not talking about immigrant families (perhaps my post wasnt clear). Its in gneral people who have children and dont give a dam. Regardless of where they are from.

Schools are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They put on trips, which cost money, and everyone complains because they're expensive. They don't offer trips and they get haranged because they aren't offering an enriched curriculum. Unfortunately, there is very little funding for trips for most schools so, yes, the parents must foot the bill. The expensive trips are NOT compulsory but isn't it a tad unfair to suggest that just because some can't afford it then no children should be given the opportunity? Look to the government, they should be allocating more money for this type of thing. But no, life is not fair.

MrsDeVere I feel that the lowest common level mark was meant financially, not about a personal level or something like that. The context is about affording school trips.

although I can see why you might have taken it as offensive.

School is never going to be fair, if it was there would not be a postcode lottery. When I was at school the have and have nots where defined by who had kicker shoes, now it is what logo you have on your messenger bag or mobile phone. To lose trips which are always going to be expensive to someone would be awful. With those on fsm not having the opportunity to go canoeing/rock climbing would be sad. The abroad trips are for a small minority funded by families in all different ways and with varying backgrounds.