to share with you this gem - do you know who is being a burden on the NHS?

[NorthernLurker]

Women doctors (Daily Telegraph link) Of course! Yes those naughty women getting trained and then having babies. How very dare they. Sayeth two women MPs........who need to visit the most male chauvinist GPs they can find for their own safety in the future. Guess who won't be getting the speculum warmed?

I despair, I really do. Don't read the comments btw unless your blood pressure is dangerously low.

Here's a BBC link for those who can't abide the DT.

Sorry, it is factually correct that the increasing number of female medical students (who are more likely to want to work part-time in future) is having the unintended consequence of a drop in the number of trained doctors available to work for the NHS (whole-time equivalents). We can either bury our heads in the sand about that, or we can start doing the maths and increasing the number of medical school places.

I dont disagree with that article.

My own GP centre has 8 GPs. 5 of them are female. 3 of them are currently off on maternity leave.

Their full time posts have not been covered by locums.

It is increasingly more difficult to see a GP there, and being able to build a relationship with your GP is also practically impossible now too.

It may have been badly worded, or more likely badly edited to gain the shock factor, but it isnt incorrect in my experience.

Yes but that doesn't make it the fault of the women doctors does it?

Just needs a bit of sensible organising chaps doesn't it.

Do women have to do bloody everything?

at blaming women or part time workers.

The burden clearly is politicians who wouldn't understand how to run a tea trolley and pass the responsibility of running a huge part of our health service to imcompetent greedy gits who care nothing more about anything other than their inflated incomes.

The number of med school places has risen in the last decade and I think it's important to remember that in a 40 year career the number of years in which a woman (or a man) may wish to work part time will be relatively small. In addition generations of mostly male consultants have managed to fit both lucrative private practice and a 'full time' NHS role in to their working week.

Look, I do not often defend Tory MPs, but where do they say this is the fault of female doctors? Where do they say that childcare is only wimmin's responsibility? Nowhere.

This is a workforce planning issue that has to be tackled by increasing the number of medical school places and trainee doctor places. This will only happen if attention is brought to the problem.

Everything well said. too tired to articulate anywhere near your level

None of the three female doctors I know personally plan to go back to working full time when their children are older. They can earn a very nice salary working for two or three days a week.

Two of them are married to doctors so money isn't a problem.

I agree it is a workforce planning issue, and more training places are needed.

Those pesky women, getting pregnant! It's always such a surprise, isn't it?

Have more part-time doctors, fgs. Improve training structures.

I read on here that women are encouraged to pack all their specialist training in young, so they don't get pregnant in the middle of some crucial project (ignorance showing here, but I suppose those in the know will recognise what I'm ineptly describing.) It would make more sense to be more flexible about when they do this training/experience, so some can come to it later while others cram it in young.

Let more male doctors take career breaks. They could bloody do with it, to save them getting so narrow minded. Basically, extend the range and flexibility of the workforce. Cuh. Takes women to see things pragmatically, doesn't it? And not the ones working male-pattern jobs like being Ministers.

I may be being stupid, but won't more med school places and more doctors mean a rise in costs to the NHS, which is already struggling?

Why are we blaming the women who look after their children and not their male partners who don't?

Cory. I took it that it was aimed more at the cost of maternity leave and the fact that many more women choose not to return to work, or work on a part-time basis than men. as such it will be the women that is focused on. No blame here, just a fact of nature.

From a purely number crunching point of view you cannot argue that it costs the NHS money. I am not saying that it is good or bad, just that it costs.

I don't know if we do need more medical school places. I know several people who have trained in the UK and then couldn't find jobs. These are specialists who passed their exams first time, good bedside manner etc (i.e. not the crap ones who can't get jobs because they don't have a good reputation). Many of them have gone back to overseas units where they did their fellowships so another country is gaining from their UK training. Presumably this is also a burden to the NHS. Its definitely bad planning on someone's part!

"Guess who won't be getting the speculum warmed?"

My keyboard just used up another of its nine lives.

People keep going on about the cost of training, but actually loads of our doctors come from overseas as we don't produce enough of our own, and medical students pay their £9k fees like everyone else.

The 'training' they're talking about is being a junior doctor - the NHS gets loads of work out of these poor sods, they end up working 70 hour weeks, having no life at all and getting paid about £28k, which is not megabucks like everyone seems to assume.

I do think we need to start producing more doctors, and that's already happening - there are more medical schools than ever before, with plans for more.

Yes, sybil, that's what I was thinking.

Wasn't the reason for junior doctors' horrendous hours always supposed to be that there weren't enough senior positions to absorb any increase in juniors?

In which case increasing numbers plus job-sharing of senior roles sounds perfect: seniors go part-time by choice, juniors' workload drops - and the patient gets seen by someone who's slept more than 2 hours...

Take "women" out of this. The problem is that some Doctors do not work full time after training and that leads to capacity shortfalls. It's a planning issue.

Also the doctors' contracts needs to be re-examined.

Incidentally, with fees at £9k per annum, it's hardly the state paying for the education any more so MPs whining about the doctors' choices is a bit rich.

I agree with Parsing.

One of my cousins is married to a surgeon. He works in the NHS, but effectively only part-time, as he does lots of private consultations and research work. In terms of cost to the NHS, this really isn't any different to employing a part-time senior medic who spent the rest of their time on family responsibilities.

There is massive resistance to reducing the workload of junior doctors - the system is set up so that their timely training demands excess hours. If their hours were more sensible, retention of newly qualified doctors of all genders and responsibilities would probably increase.

Lazyjaney. Spot on!

'loads of our doctors come from overseas as we don't produce enough of our own'

not sure if this is true and definitely not for all specialities... there was an article in the BMJ a few weeks/months ago where they examined number of overseas doctors. Basically a fair few come here to do their basic training...a few less do their specialists training and then a very few % stay as consultants. As I said above, I know a number of surgeons who have completed their specialist training and then been unable to get jobs in this country so have relocated overseas.

'There is massive resistance to reducing the workload of junior doctor' - reducing the hours that junior doctors work mean that they get less training. This means that either we accept that our doctors are not well-trained, or we increase the number of years that they train for. Training isn't as simple as learning x, y and z but they also have to have completed a certain quantity of each procedure that they will have to do.

He works in the NHS, but effectively only part-time, as he does lots of private consultations and research work - clinical research is vital to the NHS. Are you saying it shouldn't be part of a medic/surgeon's job?

I agree. I don't think anybody would argue with the idea that an industry, any industry, needs to ensure it's workforce planning accommodates changes in supply. That isn't what Soubry and Mcintosh were saying. They drew a direct line from women having babies to 'burden' on the NHS. And then Soubry backtracked enormously.