To think there is nothing wrong with Carole Middleton's background

[arabesque]

There was a pretty sneery article in the Sunday Times last Sunday by Camilla Long, which seemed to be very critical of the fact that Carole Middleton's parents and grandparents were working class people who made their living in shops and factories. There was also some comment on the lines of 'oh yeah, well William might find TV suppers and family games a novelty now but I'm sure he'll soon get sick of it'.
AIBU to think 'fair play' to her for building up a business from nothing and giving her kids advantages she and her parents could never have dreamed of? From what I can see Kate has a far more stable and supportive family than Princess Di ever had (bitter divorce, very public custody dispute, no decent advice when she was just 19 years old and about to make an enormous mistake with her life etc.) Yet a lot of people seem to think there's something preferable about a fragmented and dysfunctional family because they're upper class; while a middle/working class background with a strong work ethic is just not suitable for the future queen.

I think genuine aristocrats care very much, in all probability.

It's all so silly. Do they really think William would be better off married to a highly strung aristocrat from a dysfunctional family (like Diana) than an uncomplicated normal girl from a secure family. To be honest, I think the new royal baby will be a lot better of if he/she takes after their maternal rather than paternal grandparents.

What a bitchy article! I think they seem like a nice family. I imagine Carole possibly had aspirations for her children and guided them in the right direction but which of us doesn't do that?

As for the not working thing, I don't particularly like or dislike Pippa and James - I don't know them - but as their every move is picked up on by the papers I think working for the family business is one of the few options open to them. Look at how Pippa's book was slated by the media and ridiculed for not selling well, they can't win.

It's true that what someone said upthread is true - the press know the William and Kate are generally off-limits these days so they're going after her family instead.

It is just how things are, Julian Fellowes observes brilliantly in many of his books. For example 'Snobs':

Edith Lavery is a middle class single woman who feels she has reached a time in her life when the only chance of riches, fame and success is to marry a rich man. Her parents, especially her mother, have spent most of Edith's life trying to make her respectable to the upper classes and are both extremely glad when she announces her courtship and engagement to bumbling but kind-hearted, Charles Broughton, the son of the Marquess of Uckfield.

The engagement is not looked upon favourably by Charles' mother, the Marchioness of Uckfield ('Googie' to her friends) or by many in Charles' 'set'. His friends and relatives frequently mock Edith and attempt to 'catch her out' as an alien to the aristocracy. Her greatest enemy of all, ironically, is Eric Chase, husband of Lady Caroline Chase (Charles' sister) who comes from a similar background to Edith herself.

I have to say that having worked at the very bottom of the food chain in a place where I had a lot of contact with genuine aristos and the arriviste. I remember before I worked the first function I was warned by an older colleague 'it is the aspirant buggers that you need to watch out for'

As a rule the aristocrats were generally better mannered, more amiable and chatty and made less of a big deal of the status difference. Some of the new money types were horrendously rude - I remember having a coat literally flung at me from arms length by some impossibly rude woman. There were some exceptions (the founder of Kwik Fit was charm personified)

I don't think it is that the aristocrats are better/nicer people, it is just that in a society that values class above almost everything else, they are secure and at the top of the tree, so they could afford to chat and crack jokes with a lowly cloakroom attendant as I posed no threat to them. Also because there was no incentive for them to be 'seen' at the event in question, they'd come along because they were interested and were eager to chat about it.

To the nouveau riche, who came from background not dissimilar to mine it was important to mark the status difference, by generally being haughty and condescending. We served as a living breathing reminder of what their lives could have been and could descend to again without the family money, status and connections to keep them there.

Awwww I like Carole. I like all of them, actually.

Camilla must be relieved, though. She's spent so long being the monarchy-attachment figure of loathing so Carole must take that pressure off nicely. I like Camilla, too. And Fergie. Basically, I like all of the ones who get a rough ride. They always seem the most fun.

It was a nasty petty little article, full of sly digs at Carole. It said a lot more about Camilla Long than the Middletons in my view. She really does seem to have a chip on her shoulder about them for some reason. There was quite a resentful, begrudging tone to the article.
I'm surprised at the Sunday Times to be honest. Camilla herself is obviously not very well bred and knows no better; but a national broadsheet should have higher standards than that.

Composthat you say that the aristocrats were usually better mannered, I can believe that and all you the positive things you say but they don't generally accept others into the fold. They will make less of the status difference in public but, IME, in private it's very different. Not to say they are bad but IME they are not more gracious and accepting about class differences especially when it comes to middle class folk who don't know their place. These upset the status quo you see.

That's possibly a fair point, but then I wasn't in a social situation with them and am never likely to be. I wouldn't want to hang around with either given the chance.

I just am quite annoyed when someone feels it is beneath their dignity to treat someone else as a human being.

I'm not particularly a fan of hereditary titles or privilege and went into the job fully prepared to loathe the toffs, but found contrary to my expectation found them far more likeable people than the self-made types.

I have no problems with the self-made types, so long as they are nice to the people they've passed on the way.

Back to the point, I don't know Carol Middleton and have no opinion of her character or likeability, but I do find it a bit depressing in that she appears to have a somewhat retrograde view on how women can succeed in life.

Her tactic seemed to be 'marry money/status' rather than achieve anything on your own two feet. She did it herself and has seemingly encouraged her daughters to do the same.

Camilla Parker Bowles comes out of this as rather a quite the piece of work IMO, dubbing the Middletons "Meet the Fockers" and calling Carole 'Lively' apparently an insider type insult amongst the upper class? WTF?

William has obviously made it clear that his in-laws will not be frozen out, and more power to him.

Not surprised the Duke of Edinburgh likes her either.

I like her. She's a total self starter and I wish I had some of her business gumption.

Whoops typo. Delete my 'rather a'

I'd far rather have Carole as a member of my family than Camilla Parker Bowles. As far as I'm aware Carole never exploited a vulnerable teenager in order to cover up her adulterous affair. Now that's a background to be ashamed of.

Well Camilla Long isn't squeaky clean herself.

ST having an especially bad news week then. I stopped reading it years ago, it would seem it hasn't improved then.

I quite like Boomba's comment on it, sums the situation up neatly. It is neither newsworthy or interesting.

Her ancestors were working class, they worked hard, the family now has a successful business. How ghastly. I can see exactly what they should be ashamed of.

I honestly didn't realise that people still did social climbing and sneering snobbery. I thought we were past all that, weren't we?

At least she didn't teach her daughters that the way to success was to make a sex tape and star in a reality TV show. That seems to be the way that lots of other people are going.

I hate the way that she attempts to justify that sneery article with some reference to 'feminism' at the end - It doesn't make sense. Is she saying that carol Middleton is not a 'proper' feminist or a good enough feminist fir Camilla? There are some weak points about hair pins or summat but in the end Camilla is talking about a woman has worked all her life, raised 3 children which seems a pretty successful feminist to me.

Compos Hat I'm not particularly a fan of hereditary titles or privilege and went into the job fully prepared to loathe the toffs, but found contrary to my expectation found them far more likeable people than the self-made types

Mostly my experience too (with the exception of some Scottish central belt "aristos"). If I never have to deal with another middle England middle middle class pushy mother and spoilt daughter combination again, I will cheer. In fact this year I am refusing to rent to them at all. All the genuine old money types have been lovely to deal with.

Its quite funny that some people think marrying a royal is the pinnacle of social climbing success. Theres an awful lot of old families who don't move in their set at all, and quite deliberately. Its all too much in the public eye.

That said, there is nothing wrong with Carole Middleton's background at all, but its a pity shes brought up her children to view marrying well as the pinnacle of female achievement, although ideal for the Royal Family.

I agree ubik. She tacked on that final paragraph as if some kind of an intelligent and worthwhile argument had been woven through the article and this was a conclusion. Instead, it was an out of kilter paragraph stuck onto the end of a shallow, superficial, spiteful little rant.

lessmissabs would that be a frequently drunk and fairly recently deceased senior Scottish noble to which you refer?
I never came across him, but heard a host of negative stories. His son and heir is a thick as shite in the neck of a bottle.

Agree, Encyclogirl - I like Carole too.

Him, but also one rather further west and one very near to Edinburgh, can't stand any of them.

Hamishbear I can believe that and all you the positive things you say but they don't generally accept others into the fold. They will make less of the status difference in public but, IME, in private it's very different

Some do, some don't. At university they socialise widely. The Middletons are examples of this, but there are many other examples. Some of them socialise with whoever they meet and like in their lives, and pretty girls and fun, sociable men have always been welcome.

But I think titles are a bit pointless now, I prefer to judge people on what they've achieved as individuals in their own lifetimes and how they treat other people, than who they have married.

LessMissAbs - I didn't mean the aristocrats don't socialise with them but often they don't see them as wholly 'one of them' despite it appearing that they are part of the gang.

Another article by Camilla Long in this weeks ST

"don?t know what?s sillier: Elizabeth Hurley hanging out with a former rebel fighter or Elizabeth Hurley hanging out with a former rebel fighter because she?s got a part in a film. Apparently the world?s juiciest camel toe has finally landed her first role in a decade, in a rubbish thriller opposite Putin-kisser Gérard Depardieu, and they both went to Chechnya for filming, where they met the Rumpelstiltskin lookalike and grinning creepy president, Ramzan Kadyrov.

Kadyrov is a toxic dwarf with a liking for gold, cars and knives. He is a flamboyant dancer and pistol obsessive, and was once allegedly filmed ripping a bra off a prostitute in a sauna-based orgy. He is Berlusconi, but with guns; and now he?s Hurley?s pet tyro, after he showed her his kitten, Chanel, and pressed it against her face in a loving but strangely threatening way, and she looked frightened and held it............"

lots more

Well on her way to another Hatchet Job of the Year Award.