7 year old 'I want to die' - what is the best way to get him help?

[dilemma2013]

Name changing (semi) regular for reasons i'm sure are clear. Posting for high traffic.

Ds1 has had 2 close friend (A and B) since starting school 2 and a half years ago. They are all 7. Lately B has seemed quieter and less a part of the threesome than he used to be but I'd just put this down to the normal friendship fluxes that happen at this age, especially in groups of 3. He has also had a baby sister just before he turned 7. I'm mentioning this because it may or may not be relevant. We are friends with all the parents and socialise with them although not especially close to B's parents.

Ds1 has said to dh today, unprompted, that B has on several occasions said things like 'I want to die' and 'my parents don't love me anymore now they have my sister'. On gentle questioning by dh he said that B has cried a few times.

We are absolutely clear that we are not going to ignore this but are not sure what the best approach is. My gut reaction was to go round and speak to his parents tonight when he is in bed. As friends we'd want them to do this for us if it was ds1. Dh thought though, which hadn't crossed my mind, was that given that this seems to be about them perhaps we'd be better off speaking to the school who will have access to professional help that we clearly can't provide. However if they found out we'd done this without speaking to them it would be friendship changing for both us and possibly the boys.

Clearly we want to do what is best for B with his parents feelings (and our friendship) being a secondary concern. To clarify we've never seen any concern in the interactions between B and his parents and they seem like a normal loving family.

What would you do?

Thank you Grunt..I saw that. But its the patronising "I will check to see if they spoke to school and if they didn't I will" attitude that I was referring to!

If my child had an emotional problem that a friend had noticed and mentioned to me I would then be pretty pissed off if she went behind my back and checked up on me because it implies that she thinks I am ignoring my childs needs.

Given that the boy comes from a "normal loving family" (ops' words) and that the OP "has no concerns" about them, then she should leave them to help their son in the best way possible.

Agree with xylem, its not a totally unusual thing for children this age to say.

My DS said something similar about 6 moths ago (he's 8), I was horrified, very upset (didn't show to him though) but talked to family & friends who work with children & they reassured me its not that unusual.

My DS is also 'sensitive' and since that instance hasn't said anything similar.

I also help in a school and within a couple of weeks of my son saying this I heard 2 other children the same age say something similar.

I would speak to the parents but then also to the school. I would personally inform the parents that because of my safeguarding training, I have to inform someone (my personal other choice would be the Diocesian safeguarding officer).
The school should be well informed on what to do with such information.

BTW I knew a little girl who paid children to try to kill her. She was referred to CAHMS, and s now being investigated for Autism; such behaviour doesn't necessarily mean abuse/neglect. That is why it is good to get professionals involved.

Nokidshere I think you've got the wrong end of the stick about what I meant when I said I'd talk to the school if they didn't. I meant if I still had concerns about him AND I didn't think they had taken it seriously. I do trust that they love their ds and will try and do the best by him. But my reason in involving the school is that they will have access to getting him help and support that I can't and actually if I was still concerned about him I wouldn't actually care what the parents thought about it I'd act on it.

Given though that currently I feel a bit reassured by their reaction I don't feel the need. But if my ds mentions it again I think I'd act on that.

I'm also very reassured by those of you who work with children that this type of comment isn't that unusual. I was hoping someone with experience would come on here to give me a bit of perspective.

Thanks also to those who've shared personal stories of abuse because obviously while this isn't my immediate concern in this case it does highlight that things can be very wrong even when they appear right. This is the reason why i'm not going to just drop it now I've told his parents. And this is the main reason we considered going to the school first - because if the problem was With the parents (even though we thought this very unlikely) that we could make it worse going to them.

Anyway i'm waffling. At the moment i'm happy we've done the right thing and happy that we will try and keep Ann eye on him. And if needs bree week take it further but hopefully that won't be necessary.

And actually its not really only appropriate to contact the school if I have concerns of abuse surely. If I have serious concerns that B had expressed that he wants to kill himself, even though this is a common statement and suicide is rare in young children, actually if those concerns still exist after talking to his parents I think it is entirely appropriate to talk to the school.

I do understand the view point of those who think I should leave well alone now. And you are right I don't have concerns about the parents end their interaction with him. But if he's saying it seriously (and given that I wasn't there I can't judge that for myself) then he is at least a very unsettled little boy and that means he needs help. Never mind if he really means it.

"Nokidshere I think you've got the wrong end of the stick about what I meant when I said I'd talk to the school if they didn't. I meant if I still had concerns about him AND I didn't think they had taken it seriously. I do trust that they love their ds and will try and do the best by him. But my reason in involving the school is that they will have access to getting him help and support that I can't and actually if I was still concerned about him I wouldn't actually care what the parents thought about it I'd act on it"

I didn't get the wrong end of the stick.

If you dont think the parents have acted appropriately in getting their child help then you will step in and take the matter to the school. I think thats pretty clear actually.

But since you have no idea what the parents will do - because why would they discuss their concerns over their childs health with you - how are you going to know what they are doing to deal with it.

You obviously aren't that friendly otherwise you will have talked to her at length about it, and offered your full support in accessing available services if she didn't know how?

His fears and anxiety might last for several years, even with proper support from the services available - that doesn't mean he isn't being helped.

Dilemma I think you're in a very difficult position and are handling it brilliantly, many people would have said it was nothing to do with them & possibly even distanced their son from a friend who came out with these comments.
As I said earlier my parents were able to hide the emotional abuse I was subject to (to the extent that my brother didn't see it going on under his nose but now knows it happened). To the outside world we were 'normal' and an extremely happy family, but that was not what I was experiencing behind closed doors. The problem is that as a child in that situation you think your treatment is normal, that all families are like yours & you can be so desperate to please your parents that it's hard to know, even if you directly question a child, for sure what's going on. I only realised in my forties what I experienced was abuse as I just thought everyone else's Mum was nasty to them like mine! Thank you for saying you'll keep an eye on this boy & take further action if you need to. Hopefully in this case it is just a reaction to the change in his family and the fact he has said something to your son is perhaps an indication he feels he can express his unhappiness so doesn't feel the pressure to 'keep up appearances' as I did. Well done for caring so much.

I've said the same on another similar thread recently, my dd at about seven said very similar things, and it really frightened me. But in her case, it was very much about things being very black and white and unable to express shades of grey in relation to emotion. She doesn't say it now she's a bit older.

I think you did the right thing by telling the parents, it could be a sign of something more or it could just be a small child without the adult's sophisticated language to express his upset/distress in having a new sister (children have very strong emotions but often not the language to express them). But- you can't tell that and you did right by passing on the information. Their reaction tells me that he may well talk in this 'extreme' way but they are somewhat reassured that it is fairly normal for him and he'll grow out of it (which is what happened to us).

Well done for speaking to the parents, dilemma, and thank you for the continuing watchful eye for the child. I work in a related field and would be glad to have parents like yourself coming forwards being caring and honest. I'm sure that the parents realized that you are coming from the 'right place' iykwim, as I can read your diplomatic approach in your posts. I hope your boys can continue to have a good time playing together.

I too, think you've handled it very well in the circumstances.

I think as time passes, it will become clearer whether you need to intervene again or not. Hopefully he will get used to having a sister or his parents will act to make him feel better. Either way, he should begin to appear happier over time. It will be hard for him to put on a continuous act under pressure from his parents, if you are watching out for it. If you still have any concerns at all, then it would be worth mentioning it to the school. Hopefully it won't be necessary.

I agree with Nokidshere
You seem to think you are in charge of this boy and situation.. As if it is up to the parents to prove something to you..when it is really nothing to do with you . yet you have no concerns re the parents...It doesn't make sense and is very patronising.
If most people ( B's parents) were put in this situation they would run a mile..you are virtually accusing them of neglecting their child's needs or worse.
So if they don't tick all your boxes what will you do?
If your dc come out with a similar comment in the future or cries then you will obviously expect someone to report it to the school?

Thanks to those who get me and where i'm coming from in why I'd consider talking to the school. Thanks to those posters who've shared that this has happened to their child and come to nothing. Mumsyblouse's post sums up pretty much what his parents feelings are about B which why at the moment we're reassured that all will be fine.

Nokidshere you are right that i'm not close to B's parents. I said as much in the op. We're friends but not close. But of course I'd be happy to chat to them with some of the helpful advice on here if they wanted. The way the conversation last night went though was that this wasn't really appropriate. They are aware of it potentially being an issue and are planning to talk to the school. No advice asked for or seemingly needed at this point.

I take issue with the comment suggesting that 'you seem to think you are in charge of this boy and his parents' though blingitback. While you are entitled to your opinion I've never heard anything so bloody ridiculous in my whole life . I'm not going to explain yet again why any concerns for B's mental health or potential child protection issues would trump any concerns for his parents feelings. These are not issues at the moment but if they became so I'll live with your disapproval.

Most People on this thread agree with my approach so hopefully B's parents will also take my input in the spirit it was given. As would I in the reverse situation and actually yes, if someone was concerned enough about my son that they spoke to his school / HV / gp / social services given that there are no issues I'm pretty sure I'd understand why they had done this. I certainly would prefer that they raised any concerns rather than ignored something like this.

Please don't minimise this because the child is "only 7".

My 6yo said this kind of thing and went on to attempt suicide because they considered themselves "stupid".

They have a troubled background and CAMHS are involved.

All similar expressions MUST be taken seriously, no matter what age the child.

OP you have done the right thing. The parents can now contact GP/CAMHS themselves.

:( sorrymylollipop. That must have been awful. Hopefully he is now getting the help he needs. And Hope you're being supported too x

Also, bear in mind this was second hand info from your ds, you didn't hear any comments yourselves.

Child protection issues are everyone's business. Mental health issues are not. They do not have to prove anything to you, what are you going to do? Ask them to let you know if he sees the professional services and what they advise?

You did the right thing in telling them what your son heard. They acknowledged that they are aware of that. What they do next is, quite rightly, nothing to do with you. Only as a friend can you enquire how the child is doing and talk about it with them if they want you to. That's it.

Yep

Definitely raise it with parents first and not with school - unless as others says you suspect abuse.

I wouldn't go round though - makes it more formal - probably would call or even text / whatsapp to say that you overheard worrying conversation between the boys and you wanted to make sure that they knew about it etc.

Ok nokidshere I get where you're coming from and think we probably actually agree. I certainly won't be interfering or demanding updates and can see why you made the comments you did if that was how my comments came across. The only reason I'd contact school without talking to the parents again is if I was seriously concerned there was something worrying going on that the parents were ignoring. Which I don't think at the moment. I'm sure you'd agree if there were serious safe guarding concerns you'd do the same.

And bling you're right its second hand info from ds. But he's said the same to his parents....

Forever the thread has moved on a bit...

But really? You'd prefer a text saying 'hiya just to let you know your ds told mine he wanted to die. Lolz xxx'

I'm glad we told them in person. I think for something potentially so serious anything else is totally inappropriate. In fact we got our neighbour to come and babysit (ds already asleep) so we could both go.

I think you're doing the right thing.

I don't agree that the OP feels 'in control' of the child. She is saying that her responsibility to the child, simply as a member of the wider community/society/human race does not allow her to just forget about it now but to take further steps if her concerns persist.

I think you've handled it well OP. You've taken the concern seriously without getting hysterical. You've spoken to the right people as a first port of call and are prepared to get further advice/raise the concerns with school should the concern continue.

I also disagree that a child's mental health is a 'private' matter. I had suicidal thoughts throughout my teens and 20s (and very rarely now in my 30s) which I could (and have) NEVER has spoken to my family about. Maybe if someone had poked their nose in when I was younger things might have been different.

The OP has no concerns over the childs welfare, or concerns that he is being abused or neglected. Can you not see that in that scenario it is not appropriate to be involved in the parents decisions about their childs health?

A friend of mine has a child who is highly emotional. He has huge highs and deep lows on a daily basis and has done since he was around 4 years old (he is now 17). We are long time and very close friends. We discuss her son regularly and I offer advice and support where I can. But even in this scenario it is not, and would never be, appropriate for me to question how she is handling it or to go behind her back and report it to school or SS. It certainly would not be appropriate for an acqaintance to decide that the parents are not dealing with the problem properly and report them to professional services.

Treatment, involvement of Dr's, Psychologists and Family therapists have not abated the problems that he has but, and this is important here, no-one but me knows what they have gone through in order to help him.

The OP has told the parents of her concerns. They have acknowledged they know there is a problem. The OP has no way of knowing what they are doing about it, or what help they are seeking unless the parent chooses to divulge that information to her personally and it sounds like that is not going to happen. The child may well say he wants to die for the next 15 years but that does not mean that he will actively do anything about it, or that the parents aren't trying to get him the support that he needs from both inside and outside of the family.

I absolutely would not hesitate to report anyone for abuse or neglect of a child, even if I were only partially certain that something was wrong. But this child is in a normal home with a loving family (ops words) and it is not the OP's place to tell them how she thinks they should proceed with their childs health problems.

Safeguarding issues are not what is at issue here. You need to look at the whole picture and ask yourself why you feel it is your place to decide if the parents are acting appropriately or not.

Nokidshere you appear to be well qualified to speak about this topic but would ask how you would proceed in a case like mine where I was emotionally abused in a seemingly 'normal home with a loving family' by my Mother. No-one else knows for sure what is happening in a family and even those in a dysfunctional family don't know themselves (my brother didn't & I only realised in my forties). The boy OP posted about is unhappy, that is the only fact we know. The cause could be the arrival of his new baby sister, it could be any number of other things (possibly trivial) or it could be abuse, the point is no-one knows and Dilemma is simply doing her best to ensure he is looked out for and is keeping an open mind about what may be causing his unhappiness. I'm not sure how she can be criticised for that caring action.