to think that all the people who have a problem with people using "girls" instead of "women"

[CartwrightMiss]

Should say "womanfriend" instead of "girlfriend"?

[gron]

I think you thought people thought the same way on this issue.Many dont.
But I expect you will still be saying the same thing in several years time like Xenia.
You need to remember that soo many things that annoy you, dont annoy other people.
Yes, fine to talk about them, but you do seem to assume that practically everyone else thinks the same, and they dont.It may not even be a majority.

Me, ilike?

No, I didn't think people thought the same way. I don't think they do.

I've been saying all the way through this thread that people are entitled to differ over what annoys them - read my actual posts, if you don't remember them.

Technotropic- you are being disingenuous.

There is a world of difference between "I'm going out with the boys tonight" and "The boy from Accounts will run through the latest figures"

And you know it!

I completely stopped calling women 'girls' about 20 years ago. It's very easy; I just say woman where you might say girl.

The trigger for this was my colleagues' offence when, after a night out with them, I said I'd been out with the boys. We Are Not Boys, they said, there are plenty of other words you can use, which don't make it sound as if you think we're children.

Fair point, thought I, and a universal one. So I stopped doing it :)

Incidentally, my next-door neighbour, also in her late fifties, talks about her friends/colleagues as girls. I say women. Doesn't seem to stop either of us talking!

Seeker

What is the difference between a mechanic telling me one of the 'boys' will sort my car out and your example about accounts; except one is a suited city job and one is a manual job? Are you now saying that accountancy is somehow more relevant than someone working on nuts/bolts?

I don't work in accounts so wouldn't know but to me there is no difference at all. It's not being disingenious as we're talking about a term being derrogatory and sexist. I've merely pointed out that the term can be used for both purposes.

If anything I would have thought certain city jobs would have used the term 'boys' just as much; given links with the old boys network.

I could find many examples of 40 yr old men being called boys

but they would all be black men called that by white men in the racist Southern states....

Actually, in this day and age, you would find very few examples. And one reason, among others, is that a significant aspect of the civil rights movement was to change language to promote equality and respect. This was also one of the signal imperatives of the women's movement: cultural norms regarding what we call things influence societal attitudes, especially from one generation to the next.

I'll tell you when adult males are called boys... When they're a gay couple on a property programme. 'the boys could stretch to £400k for a house in their ideal location' etc. Pretty much always.

Make of that what you will.

LOL ^^

Oh yeah, like the Pet Shop Boys and Boy George

I don't tend to use 'woman' because to my ears it sounds harsh (and as I am 50 I'm not exactly a girlie myself). I think of my sons as boys and call them boys, even though they are 25, 23 and 21. I also think of the 'men' at work as boys, since most of them are younger than me.

But then I'm not with the times because I loathe the term partner and never use it. (and always correct anyone who refers to DH as my partner).

Fascinating that terms that are not demeaning to women - such as "women"- always sound harsh. Just like Mrs is easy to say, but Ms isn't. And women's last names are always horrible and impossible to pronounce or spell, and men's last names are always lovely and euphonious. That's why women are happy to change their names when they marry!

I often get called a girl at work. I'm 38. I'm a better sales woman than most of those who call me that and more than a few of them have offered me a job. I seriously can't be bothered to get in a snit over this issue. Even I they were being sexist, I would just think 'wanker' and move on. I was called a buxom wench by a bloke at the weekend, do I need to be offended by that too?

Clothcat, that is what people generally do when other people are being sexist. If you're thinking somebody is being sexist and think 'wanker' about them, you are offended.

What do you think offended people do in offices? Get up at the windows and start throwing all the office furniture out on to the street like in Les Miserables?

What were you feeling while you were thinking"wanker"?

And when you were called a "buxom wench" by some git?

Is it possible that we are working on several different definitions of "offended"?

Nope. Im not offended, I just think they were a wanker. I wasnt offended at buxom wench either. I suppose the difference is that I dont often feel threatened/inferior to men. I know what offended means, you just need to work exceptionally hard to offend me.

What do you think offended means? I don't think it means the same thing as threatened.

I think thinking someone is a wanker is different from being offended, though, as well as different from being threatened/feeling inferior.

There are some people where you just think 'well, I know this person is a total wanker so I am not even surprised, let alone offended', aren't there?

I don't know. I would just consider offended to mean that you think somebody else's remark was rude or unpleasant about a person/group of people.

I never said feeling threatened or inferior equal offence. Id say offended is thinking a remark was rude or unpleasant and actually being bothered. If Im not bothered, then Im not offended.

True, I agree.

"So, if the man isnt being deliberately offensive, and there are people who like it, then no problem."

If only it was that simple! It's part of a bigger picture.

I wonder ... would you be happy to find out that the person calling you "girl" at work is on considerably more money than you - just because he's a man?

While we still think it's acceptable to call grown women "girls" (in situations where "boy" would not be used for a man) then men will continue to be valued more than women IMO, and paid more as a result, most often without anyone realising that it's happening - even the person deciding the salary.

"New research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences shows that sexism in science is alive and well. Corrine Moss-Racusin and her fellow researchers conducted an experiment in which they gave student applications to science professors at a number of universities to evaluate for a lab manager position. The resumes were identical save for the fact that one had a male name at the top and one had a female name. Professors of both sexes judged the male candidate to be more competent and a preferable hire. And when asked what starting salary they would offer to each, the male student was judged to be worth almost $5000 more than his female counterpart. " link

What bigger picture?

That was a schoolboy error if ever I saw one

Techno, males of school age are boys.

aufaniae. I think in your example, that women should try and stop being a bit of a doormat, especially at work.
You can still be gentle if you want to, but should also be able to stand up for yourself.

I knwo at this point, some will say "well why should the women change".
Answer is, because there are not men here to educate. And unless we have access to a lot of them, we cant try to change or influence them.

I think the trouble with this forum is that there are not oodles of men here.
If there were, we could find out how they work, and operate and think a bit better and put them straight on a few things.
Soem people say, well why arent you telling the men to do x y and z. Well we would if they were here!

And there is no reason why women cannot try to emulate men sometimes.

Ilikethebreeze - I'm afraid I must disagree with you very strongly. By saying that women should be more like men in order to succeed, you are reinforcing the belief that male is the default, the norm, the superior option. And if that is the case, women will always be playing catch-up.

How on earth can we compete on a level playing field when the rules are so obviously skewed in favour of the opposing team?