to think that all the people who have a problem with people using "girls" instead of "women"

[CartwrightMiss]

Should say "womanfriend" instead of "girlfriend"?

[gron]

If he is a position of power and sees women as girls, then insisting he calls them women would be moot. It's the way he perceives anyone with a vagina that should be challenged, not the term he uses to define them.

My milkman says good girl when I pay him (I'm 42). He doesn't say good boy to my husband.
It tells me that he and I have nothing in common (and imo he is a twat)

I didn't think so.

I don't habitually go around telling people senior to me what I think about their word choices, for obvious reasons, but it is perfectly possible to have someone tell you a word choice might say something about your preconceptions, and not to react in outrage at the idea. Some people even take it as constructive criticism. So I don't think it would necessarily be moot to tell someone - you'd just have to do it tactfully.

I do believe there are an awful lot more people who are not deliberate in the way they use language, than people who deliberately use it to reflect the fact they're bigots.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that changing language will achieve anything on it's own. But it's a start. And it will help women think differently about themselves- somebody of here has already said the they think being called a girl is "sweet" and they "play up to it"

I say "girls" but also use "boys" in the same context. I also say boy and girlfriend about people's partners and described DH as my boyfriend until we got married although we had a house, two children and a relationship of many years by then.

If people use it unequally I can see why it could be construed as degrading though.

But the words are the window to the brain- when a man calls me a girl I can see that their brain is v small.

I just don't believe that's true. I mean, I'm sure it's true of a few genuinely sexist people, but I think the vast majority of men are not being consciously and deliberately sexist. I believe quite a lot of them would be shocked and upset to realize they might be using terminology that was, and would want to change it.

Have you never had this sort of experience? You realize you were using a word that you'd picked up somewhere, and actually it's horribly inappropriate? And you think, shit, mustn't do that?

So are people saying that it's OK to call anyone anything you like so long as you're not meaning to be offensive? Or is there a dividing line?

I disagree - I think that attitudes such as his as ingrained. You may tell him tactfully, and he may change his word usage, but ultimately he would still be a dinosaur who would no doubt have a chuckle to himself at the brazen attitude of the young filly who took him to task. However, this is just one example of the word - as others (myself included) have said upthread, there are many times when the word 'girl' (and boy) are used to denote fondness and familarity. If neither side minds, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I'm quite happy to think of myself as a girl, or be called a girl by people near and dear to me. It doesn't make me think anything differently about myself - why should it?

I can't believe that.

I don't think all people who casually use 'girls' for women are misogynists.

My DH, just now, referred to someone's 'husband' when she (and he had no reason to know this) is a lesbian. I did not assume he has deep-seated homophobic tendencies - I just assumed he'd grown up in a world where we tend to assume that most married women are married to men, even though we know that this is not invariably the case.

I know it's not exactly the same, because homosexuality is rarer than being female, but I'm fairly sure that it's not too dissimilar for men who've grown up in professions that are male-dominated and only gradually beginning to take on younger women.

Is boy ever used the same way? To a 40 year old man?

"I'll just ask the boy who does the accounts for an update"

I think the trouble in all this is that some of us, eg me, Saggy, laqueen, SirChenjin and maybe others are not bothered by being called "girl". Some of us even like it.
So there are likely to be more like us in rl! So realistically, there are many people like us who are not bothered by it.
So, if the man isnt being deliberately offensive, and there are people who like it, then no problem.

I can see about 5 posters on here who dont like it.

I use girls and lads, so I'd ask the lad from accounts for an update. My DH goes out with the lads. I go out with the girls. My Mum goes out with the girls and she is 81.

I have Girlie nights with my friends that tend to involve enough wine to drown in and lots of fab food- not a pamper night in sight. I'm confident enough in myself not to give a feck if someone calls me a girl or a woman or a lady.

But then again I'm from the north, so I call people love as well and I bet that'd really piss some of you off.

Why is that the trouble, though?

Does it make you uncomfortable that some of us don't like the same things as you?

Or do you worry that eventually some of us will get our way and no-one will call you 'girl' any more, and that would be sad?

Is same-sex marriage legal in this country yet? I thought we were still at the civil partnership stage - perhaps that's why there was confusion?

I really don't know if boy if ever used in the same way - I work in a female dominated environment, and we don't tend to refer to women or men as girls or boys in a professional capacity. I would imagine however that there are bosses of both sexes who are happy to demean men and women in whatever way they can.

And on that note, I'm off to make the packed lunches and chat to the boy about his day (funnily enough, he's 50, so a bit older than 40, and he is an accountant )

chen - no, my DH would usually, like me, refer to people's husbands and wives as husbands and wives, because we don't know anyone who is anti gay marriage (I know some gay people are, we just don't happen to know any). It's not relevant, because he assumed she had a husband, when I happen to know she has a female spouse.

Whew, that was a mouthful!

I can see about 5 posters on here who dont like it.

Make that six.

You know, I would give £50 to the charity of their choice to somebody who could give me a properly documented example of a 40 year old man being referred to as a "boy" in a professional context.

Er, it doesn't make me 'feel differently about myself' when someone calls me a girl. I am 'confident enough in myself' cheers.
Why are you suggesting people have self esteem issues if they don't like being called girl? Seems an odd argument.

So are people saying that it's OK to call anyone anything you like so long as you're not meaning to be offensive? Or is there a dividing line?

When it comes to 'girls' yes. SirChenjin has already mentioned that some women are ok and some aren't. As I mentioned previously the Boots ad campaign lasted 5 successful years without women all over the UK complaining that it was sexist (or at least not loudly enough for them to axe it).

There is much too much like-for-like comparison AFAIC and often it doesn't work that way. A classic example is the Police. Arguably one of the toughest jobs out there but are often called 'the boys in blue'. How derrogatory for people that will take a knife/gun attack from a criminal. Also every gaget available that men like are called 'boys toys'. Then there are the myriad action/hero films like:

Bad Boys
Hellboy
Last Boy Scout
Essex Boys
Bullet Boy
The Lost Boys
Oldboy
Boyz in da Hood

Heck even the wild west was made up of Cowboys.

I hear, 'I was out with the boys last night' quite often and also, 'I'll get one of the boys onto it' at the garage. 'Jobs for the boys' is a classic as is 'old boys club'. Equivalent use is everywhere but not necessarily in directly opposing circumstances. It is used for both derrogatory and non derrogatory purposes just like 'girl'. Thus I stand by my opinion that I'm not going to worry unecessarily about using it as long as I don't mean offence with it.

Seeker, I could find many examples of 40 yr old men being called boys -

but they would all be black men called that by white men in the racist Southern states....