Your fat jewish friend

[Wuldric]

I am just utterly shell-shocked. I live in a world, where no-one would be overtly racist, sexist or homophobic. I thought ....

So this morning, Friend B asked me if I was playing (all have this shared interest) next weekend with Friend A. His exact words were "Are you playing with your fat jewish friend?"

How on earth do I respond to that? It's not remotely acceptable is it? Friend A is overweight, and jewish and a friend. But put together that all sounds so sneery and nasty and downright anti-semitic.

I think Catcher's suggestion along the right lines....non confrontational with just a smidge of passive aggression. Try tilting your head when you say it (this won't work if you're texting!)

ah, yes i see your point antisecco. my error.

That's interesting - the point is that fat has negative connotations whereas skinny doesn't.

I hadn't picked up on the lack of the name use - but they know one another very well (small circle in this activity) - and clearly that's offensive as well.

I think the point is Monty that as Friend B knows Friend A's name there was no need to use any descriptor at all. To have put Jewish together with a negative adjective really does point to an agenda (which tbf may be ever so casual as far as Friend B is concerned, but objectionable for all that).

And this is just me but 'fat' is always negative but then I'm the size of a small maisonette whereas skinny can be positive. Neither is anything to write home about and both completely uncalled for when hey, the totally unambiguous name is available!

Antisecco... Well, the way I look at it is to remove the adjective and replace it with another. If you take 'fat' and change it to 'pretty', does it sound antisemitic?

I've never seen a black woman who doesn't have beautiful skin... . If I were a black woman, I wouldn't be offended by that, however generalised it may be.

Lying you are making the point beautifully! To link it with a positive descriptor makes both sound like a positive, and so no, would not sound anti semitic.

As a Jewish woman (you guessed) I would certainly not object to being called a beautiful Jewish woman yeah, like that's going to happen but I do most certainly object to being called the fat Jewish woman (not sure that's ever happened either bit it could do!) But the point is, why not just call me Secco if you want to tell someone who knows me who you're talking about!

I agree with Antisecco. There's no reason to call the friend by anything other than her name.

Pretty is complimentary, fat is not. Why mention religion or appearance at all?

I would have a problem with anyone who said that to me.

I would, Antisecco or Secco. I was thinking how I'd refer to you if I didn't know your name (or couldn't remember it) and I think I'd probably try for a description of what you do for a job or some other way to distinguish you, but the important thing would be that it most certainly wouldn't be something NEGATIVE. If I really got stuck, I'd say something like, "You know which friend I mean, the one with the long/short dark hair? The one with the fab smile/teeth/handbag that I'd admired...". I'd clutch at straws until our mutual friend came up with names/events that would jog my appalling memory.

But to use an insult to describe somebody? Not in a million... why would anybody do that? I tell you now that NONE of my friends would; if they did, we wouldn't be friends.

There is much debate re race and religion in regard to Judaism. I went to talk by Will Self recently, who fiercely called Jewish people a 'race.' Under American law, they ARE legally defined as a race - for the purpose of discrimination. Of course, Jewish people come from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds but similarly, some do not practise the religion and they are secular, but still Jewish. So not black and white.

This insult does of course depend upon intonation and intent. It certainly isn't pleasant - unless this particular friend actually refers to themselves as this and is happy to have themselves described as such. I have a friend who refers to herself as 'Booby fat bird.' Her right to be called what she wants - although I have never felt comfortable to call her that!

Yes, as everyone points out - it is the combination. I have never heard anyone say 'Is that skinny Catholic coming?' That would be really odd. Strange, isn't it?

It's not very nice to call someone fat or skinny, IMHO.

I definitely agree it's also not very nice to say 'your so-and-so friend' if you know their name.

I take antisecco's point about putting Jewish together with a negative adjective, but nonetheless, I think 'anti-semitic' is far too strong a word to use. The description 'fat' is subjective and has negative connotations. The description 'Jewish', on its own, is just a description of religious belief and is not, by itself, negative or positive.

Mind you, the way things are said tell us an awful lot. If you genuinely think, OP, that your friend used the word 'Jewish' as an insult, rather than a description of their faith, then yes, I suppose you should say something to challenge why they think being Jewish is a bad thing.

Very true, Judith. It does imply negativity, doesn't it?

Some of my Jewish friends get a bit cross even discussing race versus religion, because:

"Jewishness disrupts the very categories of identity, because it is not national, not genealogical, not religious, but all of these, in dialectical tension."

Get your teeth around that one!

I am Jewish and I don't think it is anti-Semitic. A bit tactless maybe but it is a description of someone who I assume is both fat and Jewish? However, if he knew her name but decided to use her fatness and Jewishness to describe her I would find that a bit odd.

I tend to agree with Antisecco.

The low level antipathy towards Jewish people/Judaism that is exhibited by people who are otherwise right-thinking liberals never ceases to surprise me. I do worry that it reflects deeper prejudices.

Weird. Is this person from a very very very small town? Not an excuse though.

Of course "Jewish" isn't derogatory, any more than Indian or African or European. But mentioning it is pretty telling I think. Unless the game is "World of Religious Power-brokering" or "Ethnic Breadstuffs Crush". In which case, you cannot defeat my bannock hordes.

"The low level antipathy towards Jewish people/Judaism that is exhibited by people who are otherwise right-thinking liberals never ceases to surprise me. I do worry that it reflects deeper prejudices."

Beautifully described Something.

It's always just on the right side of what's acceptable, but it's definitely there.

Absolutely agree with Something too.

It was a bit of a shock tbh. I'll try to bring it up with Friend B. He is a bit mad generally but still - who would expect this?

Thank you something , perfectly said. It can just pop up in otherwise civilised conversations and it's shocking. My mum thinks she is super right on but she vile - worse because it's subtle - about people she can identify in a few words as Jewish, and assumes we will fill in the gaps. I fill in the gaps with "I'm a fucking anti-Semitic bitch", ftr.

The low level antipathy towards Jewish people/Judaism that is exhibited by people who are otherwise right-thinking liberals never ceases to surprise me. I do worry that it reflects deeper prejudices.

Nail. Head. Bang

Friend B is a cunt. A big fat one.

I agree with Lying and Antisecco.

Don't be so silly lying. I have a friend with black skin and terrible acne - generalisations are just that.

That's how you talk about someone who disgusts you. They don't deserve a name.

By the way, I think doing a fish impression was quite a good response.

Better than "quick cover the shock" laughing which is always a risk in these situations.

Did you manage to answer the question?

Both fat and Jewish were not meant purely descriptively here. Either on their own would have been unnecessary, both together are insulting. Friend B sounds prejudiced to me.

I also think skinny is rarely meant positively. Slim is positive, skinny means "I'm trying to imply you have an eating disorder"