DS excluded from 2 upcoming school trips - under what circumstances do you think this is a reasonable?

[Lionessy]

For silly behaviour with other boys at lunchtimes? No one hurt or injured afaik just general horseplay on the school field. Yr 6 boys. Apparently there have been warnings about it.

He has been on plenty of other school trips with no problematic behaviour reported to date.

The trips are both in July and are big exciting trips as they do this instead of a residential. The school have taken this decision now over a month before they are due to go.

Hmm, not sure whether they are being unreasonable or not?

I would go in and talk to the head - not necessarily to change his/her decision, but to get the full picture of what has happened and why.

Tbh, I think it was a poor decision on the school's part to link this stuff to school trips. I would expect a letter home to parents in advance if the trips were being made conditional on behaviour.

megan, part of a risk assessment for any school trip means it is a given that behaviour has to be linked to entitlement to attend the trip. They are not being petty.

If you have a certain ratio of adults to children based on your risk assessment (and on our upcoming Yr6 residential, it's 1:8), you cannot risk the safety of the other children by bringing along a child you know has shown he will not follow instructions after repeated warnings.

'it does seem a bit harsh and given it's still only May they have given him no more incentice to behave.I'

Well, it seems as if they've tried that approach and now they are going down the route of seeing if sanctions make more of an impact. I wonder how the other children have viewed the ban, and whether it has caused some who may be at the warning stage to reconsider the choices they are making?
Along the lines of 'Oh shit, they really meant what they said, and I don't want to miss out on the trip'

And megan do you really think parents need to be informed by letter that their children have to show good behaviour if they want to take part in a school trip?

In Year 6?

They could put a standard clause in their school visits policy.
Phrased delicately, with a behaviour policy attached.

It's the failure to listen to repeated warnings and follow instructions that will be the relevant issue for the school, not the initial bad behaviour.

It's not WHAT he did, it's more that if he can't follow repeated firm instruction ON site, then he could be a liability OFF site.

If it was my son, I'd be disappointed, naturally, but he'd have to suck it up. I bet he wouldn't mess up again next time a trip is looming!

Last year one of dd1's class was excluded on the basis of kicking someone in the stomach 3 months before the residential trip he was missing.
He'd been a pain for most of his time at the school, but always had bounced back very quickly, and continued to be a pain.

On this occasion he obviously had a shock and then behaved so much better in those three months that they let him go in the end with the proviso that if he misbehaved in any way on the trip his parents would be asked to fetch him straight away.. He continued behaving better afterwards too. Hopefully, he will continue behaving better.

You need to arrange a meeting with the school to discuss your DS's behaviour. As far as I know, schools do not normally take this sort of action for a bit of mucking around and so if there is a serious problem (and repeated flouting of the rules counts) then you need to be properly aware of it so you can effectively support the school.

Goblingranny, I suppose you could reinforce the fact that certain standards of behaviour are expected at school and that there will be consequences for poor behaviour.

But I'd be a bit alarmed if parents still don't get that by the time their child is in Year 6.

Under what circumstances is it reasonable?

Whenever the school decides it is. Until the child's behaviour improves. And it sounds like it needs to.

You need to do as others have said, and make and apt to discuss his behaviour and then work with them to improve it. Year 6 are not babies who can't be held accountable.

Megan - 'Tbh, I think it was a poor decision on the school's part to link this stuff to school trips. I would expect a letter home to parents in advance if the trips were being made conditional on behaviour.'

That should be assumed, though, surely?? Shouldn't need a special letter home. If you don't behave in school - repeated warnings - no trip. Fair enough!!

OP - I'd go an see the HT/the class teacher to find out the whole story, and find out which other kids have been excluded from trip, then you can back up the school. What does your ds say about it?

It may be that they have done it in advance with a view to him earning the trips back with good behaviour.

The problem at this time of year is that Y6's tend to get a bit big for their boots and behaviour goes downhill (or they freak out about secondary school which also effects behaviour)

Maybe talk to HT/CT and see if there is a possibility of him earning the trips back. Although if you do I'd do it without you DS's knowledge, you don't want to send the msg that bad behaviour will result in you going into school to fight his corner.

The only thing I'm surprised at, is that the OP is surprised.

OP - didn't you know that the school has issues with your DC's behaviour?
Because for the school to get to this stage with him, he sure hasn't been an angel for the last 6 years.

Would love to hear the euphemisms *Goblin if you get time
Have DC starting school in September ... gulp

ha ha -
'contributes well in class' = can't shut them up at all
'Lively' = PITA
'Good at practicals' = only time they behave
'Not good at practicals' = sits around talking about hair and make up/flicking blu tack at each other
'Quiet' = who is this child and do I actually teach them?

We had a childrens entertainer who described the vile little madam queen been in DDs class who spent the whole time trying to undermine and mess up the entertainers performance as "spirited" made me great word!

You could go in and discuss it to get a full picture of what he has been up to, but you are right to accept the punishment. It would send a bad message if you managed to get them to change their mind, ie. that he can do what he wants and will always get away with it.

Duly noted Haggis racks brains to remember own school reports

Yes I would expect a letter if a final warning for something this major was issued to a primary aged child.

I would actually expect one from senior school too.

As far as the children are concerned this will feel far worse than be excluded for a day, it will not cause them to like or respect school any more. That is not how children's minds work. Take away something they have been looking forward to, possibly for years and they will totally blame the teachers not themselves. That is how DCs between around 9-12 are, it's why the age of criminal responsibility is so dodgy. They can seem really grown up, but they aren't.

I doubt the boys believed the teachers meant it, primary schools are full of idle threats and half hearted lunch time detentions.

(I have helped at a primary in a very rough area that kept brilliant discipline, but they didn't just threaten. They issued one day exclusions that lost the DCs mothers a day at work. No idea if ofsted would stand for it now).

Startail, I taught in a primary like that, where the head stopped giving external exclusions because the children would run wild in the streets and heckle the other pupils through the school fence, taunting them that they were free for the day. The parents either went to work or didn't give a stuff.
Internal exclusions were more effective.
I agree that the trail of consequences ought to be clearly laid out and followed, that's why schools need to stick to their behaviour policies.
I've never made an idle threat in school my life, consistency is all.
That's why it works, they know where they are heading and can choose.

If your child is bothered about missing the trips, can't he make ammends to the school by doing chores. Work out some sort of payback scheme. Contact the Head and discuss.

It is impossible to judge without knowing the school's side.

"For silly behaviour with other boys at lunchtimes? No one hurt or injured afaik just general horseplay on the school field. Yr 6 boys. Apparently there have been warnings about it."

I seriously doult that a school would punish boys so hard for just larking about. There must be more to it.

If these boys have persistantly bullied another child then prehaps they deserve to be punished. What the OP might think is horseplay may well be pychological hell for the victim.

Its really important that school follows through with consequences. I don't think that these children should have the opportunity to "earn" back their trip. Life does not work like that.

Friends of mine who teach always say that its impossible to discipline children who know that their parents will always step in for them and complain if they don't approve. On that basis if a child of mine had presented problems previously as warnings suggest, I would support the schools decision, even if it were one I personally disagreed with unless it was so outrageous (disproportionate, based in teacher not listening to the boys account or teacher favouring one pupil systematically) that it didn't teach them a proper lesson. I would consider it important to back the school up because I would hope that any child who hurt mine would also be punished appropriately and the parents support it. The was it an explicit condition of the trip is just a way of trying to undermine the schools authority on this. Obviously if you have paid for the trip you should be compensated but loss of treats as punishment is surely a fairly universal way of exercising discipline when children are naughty. If they didn't know they would lose the trip well that's tough for them and it might make the punishment more effective because it'll teach them that they can't do a cost benefit analysis in deciding on misbehaving.

Our school has finally gone down this route too - there is a core of about 5 boys who have been banned from the fun end of term trip because basically they just cannot do as they are told.
They delight in grunting when asked to do something, in wilfully ignoring any adult who asks them a question and will not do anything unless they perceive something in it for themselves - these are Y6 boys....

They persist in using their bulk and numbers to ruin all the younger kids football at playtime, so they were made to sit indoors . They pushed other kids in their class whenever in the corridor - so were given a "no contact" order - so now they throw things at them.... "I'm not touching them miss!!"

So finally they are "sorry" because they miss out on a theme park trip... the head is sticking to her guns on this one - and all the other "good" kids are really, really happy - my daughter included (she says it would have been hell if they were going and didn't want to go) , and the potential troublemakers are behaving like never before!

There is still the end of term leaver's "do" - party - for them to look forward to - but only if their behaviour improves...

So I don't think it is unreasonable at aall - the well behaved kids have probably heaved a sigh of relief....