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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to feel despair at the blatant and constant dishonesty of ds1?

79 replies

WinkyWinkola · 15/05/2013 19:36

He's 8.

He will lie about everything from whether he's cleaned his teeth to his homework to his hitting his siblings.

It's unbelievable. I see him hitting them and he denies it outright and will never admit it.

He will never come clean even if he's caught red handed. Deny deny deny.

What to do? I find it repellant when he does his wide eyed innocent denials and then the blubbering starts when he gets punished for his misdemeanour and for lying. Still denying it all.

I actually find it creepy.

OP posts:

musickeepsmesane · 15/05/2013 20:11

Constant lying is different from the occasional lie. We all know kids lie. One of mine could've won prizes for lying. It is about control. It is also about a development. Part of development is learning not to lie. It is learning that being trustworthy is better. Peter and the Wolf is a great moral story. However I have found that getting the child in question to write an imagiative story of their own is very effective. The consequence is finished when the story is finished so the child has some control. He/she has already proved they have an imagination so the story should be good.

nokidshere · 15/05/2013 20:12

You are overreacting. Children are great liars and storytellers and it is a perfectly normal part of development. It is a normal human response to deny something even when you have been caught out. As adults we lie frequently but that's because we have matured and learned the social niceties of telling lies, both to stop ourselves getting into trouble and not wanting to hurt people's feelings.

Just because someone lies at 8 doesn't mean that they are going to turn into a pathological liar as an adult.

Original poster

WinkyWinkola · 15/05/2013 20:12

I have said to him to tell me the truth and he will not get punished. Doesn't work either.

So I'm scape goating my child because I lie every day and it's a family dynamic? Erm, okay.

OP posts:

CoffeePleaseSir · 15/05/2013 20:16

Winky your not alone my ds also does this, I could have written your op, my ds also will carry on telling a lie even if I tell him he won't be punished if he tells the truth he still won't back down.

I am watching this thread to see for suggestions as at present we do the same as you.

AnyoneforTurps · 15/05/2013 20:16

AnyoneforTurps..I suggest you stop get a better bedside manner

There is a certain irony in the fact that the silver and winky, the lying police, are pissed off with me because I have told the truth .

Actually I have got a great bedside manner (AIBU is not a consultation) because I lie all the time:

Patient: do you think I'm worrying about nothing, Doctor?
My reply if telling the truth: Yes
My actual reply (lie) No of course not, it's natural to want to get these things checked out but I don't think there is anything wrong.

Patient (this week): Do you think my son suffered while he was dying (in a horrible car accident)?
My reply if telling the truth: Yes I'm sure he did
My actual reply (lie): No, I'm sure he lost consciousness very quickly

No adult actually wants a world where everyone tells the truth all the time. So stop telling children that you do. It's a lie.

SilvercloudRainbow · 15/05/2013 20:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ilikehomecookedfood · 15/05/2013 20:17

I sometimes used to lie as a child like this, largely because I wanted my parents to think well of me. I wasn't afraid of any sanction but I was afraid that (for instance) if I said I hadn't brushed my teeth they would think I was irresponsible or whatever. It sounds stupid now, of course, but a lot of kids are, a bit! And to be honest my parents did have very high expectations which we struggled to live up to.

I don't know OP - any chance you could give him the message you love him and he's great no matter what? Sorry if that's stupid advice.

Midlifecrisisarefun · 15/05/2013 20:18

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but they don't necessarily grow out of it!
I really don't know the answer I came to the conclusion some people just don't 'get it'.
DS1 has told lies since he could talk and still does, he is 25 now, not fantastical, plausible mostly. As a child we explained, punished, made him apologise etc. We tried every approach we could, he still did and still does it...we take every thing he says with a pinch of salt!
Hopefully, the collective on MN will give you some constructive advice wishes she had mn when he was young

BarbarianMum · 15/05/2013 20:19

This. Honestly. I know it 'feels' wrong but for some children (I was one, sounds like your son was another) the fear of getting into trouble will make them lie through your teeth, no matter how backed into a corner they are.

I lied a lot as a child - about all sorts of trivial stuff. My parents were very strict and doubled and trebled punishments for lying. I was so frightened of being in trouble I lied automatically, for the tiniest things. That of course made them cross, so then I ended up being punished for something I wouldn't have originally been punished for and it would all just spiral and spiral.

I am a very honest person now and it was nothing to do with my parent's approach, although as an adult I understand what they were trying to achieve. I guess it works for some children but its not working for you, is it?

Original poster

WinkyWinkola · 15/05/2013 20:19

Turps, I'm not at all pissed off with you.

Perplexed by your statements and trying to take them on board but not pissed off.

Are many of your patients "pissed off" with you then?

OP posts:

SilvercloudRainbow · 15/05/2013 20:19

And I never for a minute suggested that telling the truth all the time is the answer, simply pointed out the implications of lying, for example of you claim you have been assaulted by someone when you haven't...the devastating effects such lies can have.

What you're writing here isn't "truth", it's your projected bias opinion, there's a difference sweetheart.

Original poster

WinkyWinkola · 15/05/2013 20:21

But I've never told my dcs I don't lie.

But I do think it a problem when I've seen him clout his sister or hurt the dog and he denies it over and over even when I say it's okay, he's not in trouble just tell me the truth.

OP posts:

AnaisB · 15/05/2013 20:25

when parents say their kids won't be in trouble if they tell the truth they don't believe them because it feels like their parents are trying to trap them.

AnaisB · 15/05/2013 20:27

If you've seen him misbehave just punish him. I wouldn't start trying to make him admit it as it keeps turning into a battle of wills that you lose.

AnaisB · 15/05/2013 20:29

Did his counsellor suggest anything that might be applicable here?

Original poster

WinkyWinkola · 15/05/2013 20:30

No. His counsellor just said he's a really clever boy overwhelmed by emotions.

I will just not engage over it if I see him misbehaving. Just punish and explain why and leave him no opportunity to lie.

OP posts:

Sheshelob · 15/05/2013 20:40

My DN is a liar and she is definitely reflecting the dynamic in her family. Neither parent can tell the truth and are always warping the truth to their own advantage.

i think rewarding truth telling is the right way to go simply because the punishment cycle isn't working. And you are starting to find it creepy. Kids are intuitive and can pick up how people feel about them. So you need to change that around. Focus on the positive and it will remind you what you like about him and will down play the lying in your mind. And maybe channel his imagination into telling fantastic stories together.

He is your boy and you love him and want the best for him, there is no doubt about that. But punishment simply isn't working here. Kids act out because they need your attention in some way. So give it - but positively.

NigellaTufnel · 15/05/2013 20:44

I think you should def reward the truth, but frankly ramp up the punishments, but with a choice.

So he hits his sibling, lies about it. Say to him, " you can admit this, apologise, and we'll move on. You can have a play, some telly, tea, pudding, bath and story and cuddles. OR you can lie to me, and you get a plain sandwich by youse.f in the kitchen and straight to bed, it's up to you.

Kleinzeit · 15/05/2013 20:59

Have you looked at Incredible Years? It?s meant for extra-challenging kids and I?ve used it with my DS for various issues and I?ve found the advice in it is short and sweet. It has a chapter on how to handle lying ? I haven?t used that specific one with my DS but the others have helped me a lot.

Try not to worry too much ? some lying is normal (one of the odd things about having a child with an autism-spectrum condition is that I celebrated when my DS told a lie because it means he's more able than if he couldn?t lie at all!) If you?ve caught him red-handed I wouldn?t really worry what he said, my DS says stupid things when he?s in trouble, and I wouldn?t try to force him to admit it to you ? though since your DS (like mine) can be aggressive I would insist he apologises to anyone he hurt.

maddening · 15/05/2013 21:05

silver - assuming my reply is the one you felt was OTT (being that there weren't many else at that point

I just felt that the op could easily get it checked out by a health professional - like I said it may just be naughtiness but in other cases problematic lying could be an issue. And while your sample of one reveals your ds growing out of it my sample of one has my dfriend not growing out of it and it being more problematic in adulthood.

But the op is seeing a counsellor with her ds anyway from later posts so am sure if there were an issue that as a professional they would have identified it - so it is just normal childhood lies :)

AnaisB · 15/05/2013 21:08

I don't think he'd benefit from more punishment. What if it just perpetuated the battle that the op is in - and her frustration and despair.

Twinklestarstwinklestars · 15/05/2013 21:11

I have an 8 year old and am a cm of a 7 year old, they both are as bad as each other so if they tell the same story it's usually the truth!

My ds goes into school saying all sorts he pretended he'd been to hospital and couldn't see out of his eye (sneaked an eye patch in) and I had school ringing me up asking why on earth I'd sent him in!

As long as you're reinforcing that its wrong I think it's just a phase they go through (I hope so anyway!)

carabos · 15/05/2013 21:13

Perhaps in his baby brain these are somehow not "lies" as such. Perhaps it's a way of desperately trying to make it not so. Perhaps on some level he hopes that if he says it didn't happen, then it didn't happen.

In adults we call that "denial" and we know how powerful it can be. Perhaps this is little boy version of denial. Confrontation will never work - it doesn't work for adults in denial. Try changing the dynamic, ignoring his bad behaviours and consistently rewarding the "victim" with love and attention.

Assuming DS craves love and attention for himself, which he will do, he's only 8, then he might start mimicking the rewarded behaviours of his siblings. Faking it till you make it works pretty well for adults - he's a bright boy, it might work for him.

AnaisB · 15/05/2013 21:14

Also second Incredible Years. My kids have (so far) not been particularly challenging, but i've still found the book dead useful.

littleshebear · 15/05/2013 21:42

He is still little, I am sure he has a moral compass, especially if this behaviour is confined to home! It sounds to me with experience of a DS who has always been extremely challenging at home and an angel at school like completely attention seeking behaviour. He didn't actually go for counselling but I did consider seeking help for him and 6-8 was about the worst age.In the end I worked out that I had got into a cycle of treating him as the naughty one and not really giving him much positive attention at all and coming down really hard on him for the slightest thing because I thought he was such a monster. His behaviour improved when I gave him lots of attention and was really nice to him and played down any naughtiness.Just a thought- I have to say that I never found punishment worked, he was quite happy to up the ante indefinitely.He is nearly 15 now and he is fine although still a bit challenging, we have a good relationship and he has grown up just fine, I am really proud of him.Perhaps just sit down with him and explain calmly that he mustn't lie, and why,and that if he does he will lose x y or z- something reasonable like sweets/a TV programme,then if he does lie calmly remove the treat and explain why, and at the same time really ramp up the praise, time and positive attention you give him? Feel free to ignore this, just saying as this approach has worked for my son and still does!

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