To feel disgusted that Elle magazine are touting porn star Sasha Grey as a "feminist"?

[Scarletohello]

So I have seen a lot of porn and Sasha Grey is a very popular porn star. Mainly because she does very extreme stuff, for example the kind of scenes where she is gagged with a man's cock to the extent that she us virtually vomiting. And she acts like she is loving it. One of the quotes in the magazine article from one of her films is, " Rip my fucking holes open". It's the most brutal, mistogynistic, woman hating porn you can possibly experience. And she is talking about it as being liberating and empowering for women. I'm no prude but her stuff sickens me. And now she's written an erotic novel and has an interview in Elle magazine where the cover line is, " writer, actress, feminist,porn star".
Makes me absolutely despair of where we as women have come to if she is being described as a "feminist". She is absolutely everything anti feminist to me. Any thoughts? Also if you have never seen her stuff, prepare to be appauled...

You didn't merely suggest anything. And you don't continue to merely suggest it either.

Really wrong. Really really wrong.

Catgirl, I'm running late for work and distracted, but I do see your point. My concern is less with porn and more other people thinking they have the right to dictate other's private lives. It is a difficult issue, but I don't feel censorship should be the solution.

Perhaps we should also ignore the contributions of someone who considers it good form to produce the basest smears imaginable on a person, merely in order to 'win' an argument on the internet. Such a person is wicked in the extreme.

Don't be silly. No-one has said anyone is in to child porn.

However, If you go on (and on and on and on) about your sex life and what you get up to, people are going to draw their own inferences.

I have no interest in your sex life Binks, or in anyone elses. No-one is "trying to dictate" what happens in peoples' private lives. The whole point of porn is it is NOT private - it is a public commodification of what is private. So bringing censorship into the debate is a bit of a red herring.

Ignoring the ins and outs of porn, are those arguing Sasha Grey is not a Feminist actual Feminists themselves, or just that know what a Feminist should be?

Seems to me you can guarantee that the first person to attack any Feminist is another Feminist, it's like a Monty Python scene.

Sasha Grey would find the discussions on this thread, interesting and is quite capable of raising as good a points as you would find if this thread was in "Feminism". I have watched the discussions that she takes part in around these issues and the issue of Teens in porn films. I watch porn, mainly extreme and like extreme/adventurous sex. I don't like to watch porn films with teens in, I prefer women of at least late 20's. In terms of the original question, she quit porn at 21, she has other interests that doesn't involve sex, so it is perfectly valid to be described as a Feminist, if her opinions and behaviour allow her to be described as such. A woman shouldn't carry the label placed on her between the ages of 18-21, as once happened. I think that's it's a shame that the ability to make so much money, from such dubious means exists for Teen girls and I say that as someone who has/had "dalliances" with the sex industry.

Binks, do you really think that porn has no influence on people's sexual attitudes and behaviour? Do you think that teenagers watching violent sadistic porn will emerge unaffected? If that's what you believe then I can see why you wou,d think that violent porn is harmless as long as the participants consent. However, if you acknowledge that violent sadistic porn has an effect on its viewers, which is a fairly established, evidenced and mainstream view, then you must see how a woman who participates in this negative influencing of sexual attitudes cannot be a feminist.

I watched a sahsha grey clip yesterday after reading this thread. I avoided the gang bangs and watched an oral sex clip. She was having her head held by a man who was pushing his penis to the back of her throat and holding it there until her eyes watered and she gagged. He then held her hair and fucked her mouth again until she gagged. She then used the saliva and vomit that emerged from her mouth as lubricant. It was utterly gross. Now I understand that there are women who genuinely enjoy that treatment that's another issue but what disturbs me is the fact that teenage boys will watch that and take from it the belief that that is what oral sex is supposed to be like, and that women enjoy it. Most women do not enjoy that treatment and yet they may feel obliged to allow it (especially young women, or sex workers).

I guess the question would be, what is she doing in her life to further women's liberation?

Certainly her job is not a feminist role. And the juxtaposition of "porn star" and "feminist" in an article heading is never comfortable.

For all I know she donates to charities that help women and is a vocal online commentator. I don't know, I don't know anything about her and have never seen her films. Does it say in the article what she does for feminism or is it just a statement that she is one. Like I say, her job isn't feminist whichever way you look at it and if she didn't say what she did that was feminist then it is not unreasonable to be somewhat dubious of the claim.

If people don't understand why porn is on the whole bad for women and girls as a group then I think there have been some books written about it.

The trouble with her being called a feminist isn't about what she chose to do for herself, but her lack of regard for the impact on society. She made a lot of money and didn't care that teens are having her 'extreme porn' normalised. She got more money than normal porn stars BECAUSE is is not your average. Fair enough she didn't distribute or market it (as Elle magasine seems to be doing ) but she clearly didn't have the forsight to think that in the wrong hands it could be touted to teens in this way. She has to take some responsibility for that as she knew she was being filmed to be seen. This is why it is hard to say she is a feminist, IMO.

I agree with that OhHullits but on the other hand f it hadn't been her it would have been someone else. I imagine the people coming up with the stuff to do were the men making the films. They will be able to find someone somewhere to do pretty much anything I think if they pay right / look in the right places. I tend to think that just because someone somewhere will consent to something doesn't automatically mean it is fine, and especially not that it is fine to film and to make available to schoolchildren. Which it is no matter what people might say. And what kind of effect does it have on their sexualities? When they are told what sex is via the porn industry, rather than finding out for themselves through exploration. How many pairs of 16 yo starting out in sexual relationships would come up with the ideas that are shown to them, by themselves? How many are pushing themselves into trying things that are at the more extreme end of sex, which previously would have come about much further down the path of sexual experience?

I think that this is a "wider society" problem, rather than an individual one. Her type of porn, should be specialist and specialist porn shouldn't be so easily available. Does any 18-21 year old fully understand how their actions, could impact on society? Also, bad parenting, is a societal problem, as are the attitudes towards women who like sex and seeing men as victim's of their sex drives. That's a lot for a teen, such as SG to take responsibility for.

I'm wary of continuing this debate after the unnecessary and upsetting insult, but I would like to say that I disagree with the viewpoint that this kind of sex is inherently wrong. There is far more porn which is perfectly ordinary and 'vanilla' as they say. It's just that the internet is a huge place and of course you can find a reflection of practically every taste. Leaving aside the issue of minors being influenced, I genuinely don't see why you can't accept and allow that this is not solely a male interest. Women enjoy it and I don't see what's so right on about telling them they shouldn't. They have the right to pursue their own private sexual interests without their bodies being used as a messaging board. My body is mine, as is Sasha Grey's. It's not a medium through which responsibility for every other person must be guarded.

We need to get back to the idea that it is faintly ridiculous - men who used porn 15yrs ago were literally Wankers. It was sad in a vaguely humorous way. Now it is so mainstream it shouldn't be seen as 'real' suddenly. We need to make sure we keep it 'unreal' for the kids and let them know it is pretty silly really. (Without trying to demoralise the horrid things I have seen about porn stars being rugged/coerced, but we don't need to go into that until kids are ready, if at all)

Binks - trouble is this IS entwined with minors as it is in Elle being advertised. People aren't saying it is wrong, just wrong for it to be in Elle.

Oh and 'rugged' was meant to be drugged.

Binks
You have pretty much argued against a strawman throughout this whole thread. I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't women who enjoy degrading violent sex. Nor is anyone saying that sasha grey didn't consent freely to participating in those films. (At least if they are that's not the point)
The argument is, can she be a feminist if she makes a) porn and b) violent, degrading porn? IMO the answer is clearly no, because this type of porn actively harms women and also men, on a societal and also an individual level. I wish so hard that this kind of thing wasn't freely available online but it is. It took me one quick google to access films for free that showed her being triply penetrated and being choked and vomiting on a penis. If extreme porn was made for the consumption of a small group of adult enthusiasts and nobody could stumble upon it then it might be a different issue. But that isn't how the world is. Actions have consequences and effects and whether sasha grey gives a fuck about it or not (and if she were a feminist she would) her pornography effects women negatively.

I don't think you can leave aside the problem of minors being influenced. That is the main problem that many people have with this whole issue.

I would like to point out, again that SG retired from being a Porn Star, two years ago, at the ripe old age of 21. Since retiring she could well have become a Feminist, but there are many branches of Feminism and whilst working as a Porn Star could have still fitted in with some of the definitions.

affects

Well this has been enlightening.... I even googled ms grey. It was pretty sad. Then i felt even sadder when i eed that her porn career finished at 21... Who thr fuck knows their arse from their elbowvat 21? Yet she made all these decisions and chouces and they will forever define her. I did have one thought though - maybe her feminist thing is a bit of a defence mechanism?

But how does it harm women? Not minors because that issue concerns all porn, and not just porn but the internet, and not just the internet but all unsuitable things young people are able to access that they shouldn't.

Why do you think that women should not engage in these activities? Sure, it's the extreme end of a spectrum but it's a long road between this and normal lovely sex. It seems to me that you are saying there's a line at which women should not disrespect themselves. That there is only so far they can fit a dick in their mouth before they're shamed out of the sisterhood.

It comes across as slut shaming to me and I don't agree with it.

I disagree that "15 years ago porn was for sad wankers", I am in my 40's, 20 years ago porn was much more couple orientated and there was good quality porn (of all types) about. I think it was the availability of cheap travel that first exploded the sex industry, people were visiting places should as Amsterdam and Thailand etc. Then the internet happened.

Female minors grow up to become women.

if someone has been harmed in some way it doesn't magically disappear when they turn 16/18.

As for teh rest - there are books around you could read if you want to understand why teh objectification of women is detrimental to women and girls as a group.

I can see the point about the coverage in Elle, but every Newspaper covered her latest book, in their relevant section, even the Telegraph. If her porn career had not been mentioned, she would be accused of re-writing her past, it's a lose-lose situation, which is a Feminist issue, as is the treatment of women who have been in the sex industry.

Whether anyone likes it or not, the modern porn industry is creating a sexual blueprint for young people. Men expect the acts they see depicted, and women are expected to act a certain way. Just ask any 14/15 year old. Boys dont want a snog and a feel over their bra...
I hate the 'oh but i enjoyed making these films, im a feminist and its my body' line. Its trotted out in a way that jarrs a little; i dont have to accept any reponsibilty because its what i wanted, and even if i didnt really want it, nobody would guess, of course. Cos imma feminist, innit....