Baby Boomers - The selfish generation?

[YellowTulips]

Ok - so this came out of another thread...but it got me thinking and gathered a few responses.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1743690-Please-I-NEED-to-know-if-IABU-before-I-take-a-stand-with-my-in-laws?pg=1

I have posted below as I did on the thread. What I am interested to know is if this is a really wide spread issue?

Disclaimer: Whilst I know (far) to many people this applies to, I have to confess my parents and PIL's so no signs of bonkers retirement plans (just good planning to give them a good standard of life).

Ok - so post below:

Whilst this case is at the extreme end of the spectrum, there seems to be (from the posts here and chats with friends/colleagues) a real reluctance on the "baby boomer" generation to make sustainable retirement plans.

Here in the UK many friends have parents who for years have lived off rising property values and the expectation that they can sell up or remortgage to fund what are clearly highly expensive lifestyles that can't be maintained over 20/30 years of non generation of income.

There seems to be a groundswell of entitlement often laughingly termed "spending the kids inheritance" - which in principle I don't object to - you can't take it with you and I personally would rather my parents enjoyed retirement than "save" or god forbid "scrimp" for me, but I am seeing this taken to "spend the inheritance and then let the kids bail us out".

I have lost count of friends who are now in some form or another subsiding their retired parents - parents who have "blown" life savings and house equity on mad "let's buy a house in Spain to live in half the year" or let's "travel around the US in a huge RV for 2 years" or "buy a boat and sail around the med" because they refused to really think if they could afford it.

Before I get beaten up, I don't object to people wanting to help family in desperate straights, I just seem to hear more and more stories where these situations were totally avoidable and parents have been - put bluntly - bloody selfish at worst and in denial at best.

The families involved are now making sacrifices that impact their children at the very time they should be the priority.

Do I just have an unlucky social group or is this issue becoming more prevalent?

Rant over.....hand me a !

It isn't their fault that they got so rich, but it is their fault that money isn't being fairly shared, depending on whom they vote for and what policies they support.

The baby boomers are joining UKIP in their droves. Looking at UKIP policies, yes, I agree, those baby boomers are selfish. They don't seem to realise the world has changed and you can't change it back.

How do you know who Baby Boomers vote for

I have lost count of friends who are now in some form or another subsiding their retired parents - parents who have "blown" life savings.
'This surprises me because I don't know anyone like this, but lots whose baby boomer parents are helping their adult children out financially and with childcare'
Which describes my situation perfectly, added to which my DH (nearly 70) is still working and his father is looking to us to help financially because 'the house will be yours one day' Not necessarily. He's had to have a mortgage too!
Not to mention, the goalposts being moved as to the age I can receive my pension, with no time allowed for me to make extra provision (and continuing to work at my then job wasn't an option).

So we're not all grasping, having a Life of Riley layabouts. I do think the OP was generalising just a tad. No-one in my social circle matches he OP's.

The late Babyboomers aren,t boomers. The are Gen Jones and sometimes Gen X. They have a completely different attitude to the boomers, so please don't blame baby boom stuff on me! I'm 49 and hate everything they stand for and am definitely not one.

Babyboomersrock - I think we're going to have to agree to disagree in this instance. I don't think you're lying - any more so than you saying you don't know anyone who doesn't help their children makes me a liar. We've just had different experiences (though I take your point about the Mumsnet demographic).

I think there are so many facets and opinions with regard to this issue that it would be very difficult to come up with a list of statements that everyone could agree with 100% - though my personal experience (unfortunately) does support the general notion that the OP suggests.

Your assertion that my (and others') older relatives are 'smug' and 'self centred' is an interesting one - as whilst this is the way you may perceive them, I don't know if I (or in fact they) would. Willfully ignorant, yes. Unaware, yes. Smug? I'm not sure. Rather - unable or perhaps unwilling to see that life's very different nowadays from 30 years ago. I seem to be fighting a losing battle with trying to convey how they think - but will try to come up with examples:

E.g. 1 - my DM is astounded that I still have some student loan to pay off. I did a four year course at university, took a loan each year as well as working every holiday and at the time and for a few years after I finished my course, interest rates were around 6%. So - for the first few years I worked, anything that I paid back was dwarfed by interest repayments that were higher. I've had one period of maternity leave whilst working and am now a SAHM expecting DC 2. All the time, interest is accruing on my outstanding loan. I don't know if I'll ever pay it off - who knows? And if ever it comes up in conversation, my DM, who filled in the forms herself as the loan was means tested, says, 'Well, wasn't it marketed as interest free?'. Erm, no it wasn't - hence the situation I'm in now.

E.g. 2 - me not going back to work after DD was born. When I told DM just how much childcare was going to cost (£1500-£1600 per month, 7:30am - 6:30pm, M-F), her reaction was, 'Well, that's extortionate!'. It may have been to her, but that was what it would have cost in the area of London where we were based. No offers of help, no offers of childcare a day a week as some people have - just a 'that's ridiculous' mentality and the idea that we had somehow picked the most expensive childcare option open to us. We hadn't, this was the best option due to work start and finish times and proximity to the train station. Again though, the inference was that the cost couldn't possibly have been that high, it wouldn't have been in her day and we must have been doing something wrong.

Finally, I know I was accused of quoting various anecdotes further up the thread but I honestly do have a number of friends whose parents are of a similar mindset to my parents. I believe my particular year and the one below me were the first to take out student loans and it's pretty clear that a number of our parents didn't (and still don't) understand their repayment implications, despite having to complete the application forms themselves in a number of cases. People talk of help with house deposits and cars and so on on here - not in my world! A relative left me some money which I was able to put towards the deposit for our first home, but this was a lucky coincidence in terms of timing (and I'd much rather have had my relative around)...

And of course I vote - have done since I was 18, including postal votes when I've been overseas. Why wouldn't I? It's a bit of a stereotypical response to assume that younger people wouldn't vote, isn't it?

I would say no. Plenty of baby boomers are funding deposits for friends' homes and amongst US friends, paying for university/college fees for a second time running for the grandchildren as they are so astronomical.

Wibblypiglikesbananas, when I said "use your votes (plural)", I meant everyone, not you. I don't make assumptions based on age, though I believe there is concern that older people are voting more than younger people - hence the feeling that the grey vote is carrying too much weight.

I simply meant to make the point generally (ie not solely to you) that we need to act together to improve things.

I'm saddened by your experiences - doesn't mean I don't believe them. I think it just goes to show what a diverse little island we inhabit.

I'm not at all sure why your dm is unable to understand - she has the facts and figures in front of her, so what's the problem? Is she perhaps trying to turn the blame on you (accusing you of choosing overly-expensive child care, for example) as an excuse for not helping out, financially or practically? Anyway, that isn't my business - I just wondered.

Your acquaintances, and those of the other posters, may not consider themselves "smug and self-centred", but they do come across that way. I'm sorry if you feel it was undeserved in the case of your own relatives, though I'm not sure they'd feel any better at being described as "wilfully ignorant".

If your mother didn't believe the facts and figures you actually presented her with wibbly then she's being deliberately obtuse. But I still maintain that you can't extrapolate from that, that everyone of her generation thinks the same way. I know my own mother was shocked when she realised how much our nursery bill cost, but she certainly believed it. Not that it led to any offers of help, but then my parents Weren't local to where we live and I wouldn't have expected them to provide free childcare as they've done their years of that.

however I'm still very aware of the fact that while we might complain about our huge nursery bills, at least this is an option for parents nowadays. Day nurseries didn't exist a few decades ago, and many women didn't have the option of continuing to work full stop. Personally I'd rather have the nursery bill and a decent career rather than not having to fork out but pretty much losing all semblance of a good career which was the case for many of our mothers generation

'No offers of help, no offers of childcare a day a week as some people have'

This idea that a parent should provide free, regular childcare of a grandchild is the height of entitlement.

What I mean by that last point is that it's all to easy to see things from our own perspective and forget that what we perceive as some great advantage, might be a DISadvantage to someone else. I've seen it quoted on a number of similar threads that not having to work must have been a wonderful advantage for the current generation of older women. That's such a sweeping generalisation and assumes that all these women were totally fulfilled and wouldn't have changed anything about their lives.

And yes I agree expat, no parent owes their adult child anything. It may be a bonus if you get it, but it shouldn't be expected

Expat - the thing is, she would never offer to help out so I wasn't expecting it. I was merely trying to illustrate that I'm not in the same position as, say, Babyboomersrock's children. If this was me with my children in years to come and I knew childcare costs were so high, rather than criticise the choice of (expensive) provider, I'd offer to help!

And incidentally, it was my DGPs who looked after me and my siblings so my DM could work back in the day. So whilst there might not have been nurseries as readily available, this didn't prevent my DM from going back to work when she wanted to.

Wibbly you are still talking about your own specific situation though, where your mother used her mother for childcare and then blatantly refused to believe that your childcare bill was so high. You cannot generalise anything from that. All it proves is that your own mother is being wilfully ignorant. There are plenty of older people who completely understand that life is tough In many ways for the younger generations. But equally, as I've shown, there are ways in which we have many advantages and opportunities now which weren't available to them

Meant to add- eg: tax credits and susbidised childcare up to about 70% of costs for low earners, a year off on maternity leave, and actually the fact that we have regulated childcare, full stop . None of these existed until recently.
Maybe wibbly because your own mother used her mum for childcare and seemingly got all the advantages of being able to work without the downsides of costs, you personally feel aggrieved that you can't do that. But life really wasn't like that for everyone. My mother never had a decent career again after giving birth, and that was the reality for many women of her generation

I know, and that's what I've said throughout this thread. Everything I've written is (perhaps inevitably) based on my own experiences - in fact, my very first post started with 'generalisations aside'... It does fall in line with what the OP was asking though. I'm not saying you can castigate a whole generation based on my parents' behaviour, definitely not - but I can't deny that I see many similarities between what the OP posted and my own life experience.

At least I have a model of how not to behave when I'm a GP myself, eh?

'If this was me with my children in years to come and I knew childcare costs were so high, rather than criticise the choice of (expensive) provider, I'd offer to help!'

I wouldn't. Loads of people wouldn't.

I wouldn't either expat. I hope i have grandchildren one day and if i do I'm sure I will love them to pieces and adore spending time with them, but that doesn't equate with providing childcare to fit around the parents lives.

I'm only 42 and my 4-year-old son knackers me. NO chance I'd do this again on a regular basis when I'm even older. If that makes me a bad grandparent (theoretically since my kids are 4 and 7), oh, well.

Janey and Expat - gosh, I find it really sad, as in my own case, that as a parent, you wouldn't want to help out your own children when their children were young. I'm determined to do all I can to help my children when they're older, particularly if things are like they are now, childcare costs high, salaries and wages so out of sync with house prices and so on.

What was the OP's question again? Baby boomers - the selfish generation?Again, my experience, but my GPs helped my parents, I'd be prepared to help my children and you and my parents in the middle say you wouldn't be prepared to do this. Maybe something to ponder on there...

Firstly, let me say I think this discussion shows MN at it's best. A good discussion.

I am at the end of the babyboomer generation. It's not exactly our fault that house prices are so high, you can blame that on the banks and building societies in the past allowing such ridiculous sums to be borrowed on salaries. I remember saying when the 90s problem came along (we had our house for sale for 15 months) that hopefully they would learn from that and things would settle. They didn't, hence today's problems.

Everyone seems to want to buy three bedroomed semis (at least) these days as well, with all new furniture and an extortionately priced wedding beforehand. When we bought our first house, it needed gutting, all our furniture was hand me downs, we bought new stuff when we'd saved up and bought it then.

As to our children, we have saved and saved over the past fifteen years and have bought another small property (with a mortgage) for them to live in or to rent out to cover the cost of their accommodation whilst at University. When they finish, we will sell up and give them the money as deposits for their own houses. That's the extent of helping them out. By then, we should be almost retiring ourselves and I expect to sell up, get an RV and tour Canada and America before coming back here and buying a cottage somewhere lovely and picturesque. Whether that happens or not is another matter, but that's our plan. OH has worked extremely hard to make this happen and we're going to thoroughly enjoy our retirement without feeling guilty that we can.

I'm not going to look after my grandchildren either. No-one helped me, I left work and we cut our cloth to suit for a long time till DH was in a good job and we started to enjoy the benefits of that.

'Janey and Expat - gosh, I find it really sad, as in my own case, that as a parent, you wouldn't want to help out your own children when their children were young.'

Since when does helping out your children mean providing free, regular childcare? I can't imagine being so selfish and entitled that I would deny my parents their privacy, freedom and peaceful enjoyment of their retirement by saddling them with providing free childcare when I chose to bring my children into this world. That's my responsibility to pay for them and look after them, including childcare.

I'd hate to retire in my 50s.

Expat But no one is denying GPs anything if the GPs actively want to be involved! I can't think of a bigger privilege than being entrusted with the care of any future grandchildren I might have.

Almostfifty - the irony. What can I say? Have you even read the thread? I don't own a three bed semi, I've had to save to buy the furniture we have and like pretty much every poster on this thread who isn't a baby boomer, I'm sure we'd have all loved to 'cut our cloth to suit' in an era when house prices were three times a single person's salary... That is the whole point! You are not comparing like with like - as illustrated time and again by PPs.

And that buy to let property you bought, whilst great for your own children, has just served to push up house prices and contribute to what you call 'today's problems'.

And I find it very sad wibbly that you measure help and support by 'being willing to act as a free childminder to fit around the working times of your adult children'
There are many ways to be a loving, involved, caring grandparent. Anyone who thinks the only way, or even the best way, is to basically sign your life over to fitting around the parents work commitments sounds supremely entitled and selfish. Let grandparents be grandparents. That in itself is a gift - they shouldn't feel obliged to bankroll their adult children any more.