I think UKIP are the middle and upper class division of the BNP.... suggesting compulsory abortion for unborn babies with Down Syndrome

[JakeBullet]

Or rather yet another of their candidates has made a stupid comment. They really are not all that good are they?

Here

Yet another reason not to vote for them.

Yes, madamimadam there were a lot of new members that day, who had no children and never posted on any other thread. Sad, as their views were interesting to say the least.

Didn't one turn out to be a NRA-supporter from the US? And another one was on of their councillors? Gawain something?( I remember expecting the Green Knight to pop up any moment, claiming to have posted on AIBU...)All pretending to be longstanding MNers.

And then they got unmasked as Men of a Certain Age With Interesting Views. It was like something from Little Britain, wasn't it?

Although something like 90% of foeutuses who are diagnosed with Down's Syndrome are aborted anyway, so much as I abhor this man and his views, it's actually a debate society needs to have.

Can I just say that this number refers to the amount of people who, having had a positive Downs test with an amnio or chorionic villus sampling, then go ahead and have an abortion. But only a tiny number of people are even offered an amnio, and most of those who wouldn't go ahead with an abortion wouldn't have an amnio (entirely self-selecting group, not many people would go to all the trouble and risk of having an amnio just for information purposes although obviously 10% do decide against abortion in the end).

But about 35/40% (really hard to get figures as they are not counted) do not go for even a screening scan/nuchal test/triple test, because they don't want to know, let alone an amnio. And most people aren't high risk so don't get offered amnio. So, although it is true technically that 90% of those who had the diagnosis went on to have an abortion, this is a very select group who were perhaps more active than the general population in not wanting to have a child with Downs syndrome (although it could be an incidental finding as well.) And with better information and counselling, in some American clinics, the % has fallen to about 65% even of those who sought amnio.

I've met bigoted people who support the left, middle and right wing political parties flatpack - i don't think any party has a monopoly on bigots, some people just are more savvy at hiding their real feelings it seems.

I think that, sadly, being racist and xenophobic to at least some degree is part of human nature.. It seems to be present worldwide and has a very long history in Europe especially.

I'm amazed you didn't say so up front instead of ranting on about middle class and left wing Guardian readers.

Ranting about the Guardian, middle classes, lefties, north london, betrayal of the white working class etc is a classic right wing kneejerk response and it's an attempt to shut down the debate. Because, of course, if you do happen to be middle class or read the Guardian etc then your opinion is worthless.

I am pro-choice, and this definitely means choice either way, not compelling any woman to do something she doesn't want with her own body.

No human being is a "burden".

Ranting about the Daily Mail , Sun readers,thickos, betrayal of the liberal concensus etc is a classic left wing kneejerk response and it's an attempt to shut down the debate.

Fixed that for you, Catlike

So he wants to kill children with disabilities and he wants to force women, presumably lots kicking and screaming, into a medical procedure against their consent.
What a vile excuse for a human

Catlike my husband works in construction and his wages literally halved overnight when the new EU states joined. And he wasn't well very well paid anyway. Construction firms don't invest in training people anymore either, they just import people. There are jobs that used to be well paid because they were dirty and unpleasant which are minimum wage now.

I am concerned by the conditions that some people working in the construction industry (often on minimum wage) from abroad live in. There are Indian's on my husband's site who don't even have their own bed but pay for shifts in one, travel 4 hours each way work and simply sleep and work. I think it's dragging down the standard of living for everybody else when people will accept jobs for wages that only allow this standard of living.

There are all the normal things like pressure on housing, public services and jobs.

I live in a northern town where racial integration between incomers from certain parts of the asian subcontinent is virtually non-existent on both sides.

I can certainly see some of the positives and don't think that the immigration that we've had over the last 15 years has been totally negative, certainly with regards to the NHS etc. But I don't think it is sustainable to carry on with immigration at the levels we saw under the last Labour government. There are just questions about housing, public services, jobs etc that just haven't been answered.

I would like to see more focused and positive immigration at a lower level, concentrating more on highly skilled migrant, rather than the willy nilly immigration we were used to.

I listened to Nigel Farage on Today this morning and lo and behold, he spouted the tired old trope about how 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians (i.e. the combined total population of both countries) were just waiting to flood the UK once the rules on them working in the EU were relaxed.

I'm sure Farage is no fool, which means that he was being deliberately inflammatory and ignoring the evidence. I actually don't think he cares about these people who are representing his party, I think he's just worried that too many of them are being caught out. (Which doesn't mean that I believe there are no mainstream councillors with similar views, they're IMO just better at not being caught. )

Fact remains that as an Eastern European myself (broadly, Holland is East of the UK after all) I feel more unwelcome after almost 16 years here than I have ever done. This despite the fact that I have never claimed benefits or offered to do a job for less than a local recruit. UKIP plays into a mean Little Englander spirit that I'd really hoped had gone away.

Catlike

Ranting about the Guardian, middle classes, lefties, north london, betrayal of the white working class hmm etc is a classic right wing kneejerk response and it's an attempt to shut down the debate.

Did I just read that correctly? You're claiming victimhood after the Guardian has spent the better part of 15 years calling anyone who objected to mass immigration a racist, anyone who objected to gay marriage a bigot and anyone who raised concerns around the science of global warming a 'denier'?

Because, of course, if you do happen to be middle class or read the Guardian etc then your opinion is worthless.

Not at all, being middle class doesn't make anyone's opinion worthless.

No flatpackhamster, you did not read my post correctly if you think I am "claiming victimhood". (as you well know)

I stated a fact, which is that it's a very common tactic on threads like this for right wing forum members to try to shut down debate by ranting about middle class, lefty Guardian readers :)

What if you're a Guardian reading, north London leftie who is also 'indigenous' white working class. There are quite a few of us you know.

I want to know how the fuck you manage to live in North London?

I mean, how do you afford it, do you have a family?

Is that a serious question? If so it's bizarre.

Possibly, yes, it just kind of blurted out. But I moved away from North East London to to the north because I found it was simply no longer in any way affordable for genuinely working class people anymore. But in all honestly I probably shouldn't have asked because it's not really relevant to the thread so ignore me.

I take the Guardian. I don't state that concern regarding global warming is being a denier. I don't have a problem with a sensible rational discussion on immigration, either.
I do have a problem with Farage, who is just trying to stir things up. He doesn't want a sensible discussion on immigration, he wants to play on peoples prejudices and fears. I have a problem with UKIP wanting to privatise parts of the NHS and a really serious problem with 'congregate communities for the learning disabled'.

I don't think it's a bizarre question. I live in the midlands, and on £40K with three DC in a 3 bed semi, I can hardly afford to buy the Guardian, let alone organic humus.

So I imagine to live in NL you need to earn................. a lot.

This was what I thought but was too polite to say.

Catlike Anyway, regarding your comment that:

Sorry, but Guardian readers do tell the working class that their opinion is worthless, normally with some charts and graphs that tell them they have not been badly affected by immigration when what they see when they open their wage packet or look at their rent book tells them different.

I have just been really shit at using italics.

I stated a fact, which is that it's a very common tactic on threads like this for right wing forum members to try to shut down debate by ranting about middle class, lefty Guardian readers

Just as it is a common tactic for left wing forum members to try to shut down debate by ranting about Daily Mail reading Nazis?

Luckily for you AngiBolen The Guardian online is free and has plenty of information about poverty and income disparity in London.

Also Green Lanes has loads of places to buy cheap hummus.

In many boroughs in London an income of £40k would place you in the top half of earners.

My point was that UKIP (and many right wingers) are very fond of stereotyping 'lefties' as out of touch with 'real' 'white working class' people and are so fond of that 'Hampstead Dinner Party' stereotype that was tired in the 80s. How in touch is stockbroker's son and Dulwich college alumnus Nigel Farage with the concerns of the average resident of a council estate off Holloway Road?