To (privately) disapprove of my friend having a cleaner

[Unami]

Ok. This may be long, but I will do my best to explain where I am coming from. My friend has a cleaner and I privately disapprove. I would never make an issue of it to her, or even bring it up. It was brought up by another friend when we were at her place for drinks. She was a bit about it, and it led to a big discussion, but I didn't say anything committal. I do recognise that she can hire a cleaner if she likes. If she likes she can hire a troupe of jugglers and have them juggle in her kitchen all day, if she likes. It's none of my business, I get that.

But I still privately disapprove. AIBU?

Her cleaner comes to her two bedroom flat twice a week and gives it a full clean, and that apparently includes hoovering all carpets and upholdstry, dusting all surfaces, polishing wood, sweeping and cleaning wooden floor in hall and kitchen, emptying waste bins in the house and taking kitchen bins round the back, cleaning mirrors, cleaning the inside of windows, full clean of the kitchen including inside the fridge, full clean of bathroom. Once a month she also gets the oven cleaned, extractor fan cleaned and polished (!?), cupboards dusted inside and out. She says she pays £45 a week for this.

It's just her in the flat. She doesn't have kids and doesn't live with her bf.

Here's my perspective. People say that having a cleaner is just like hiring any other service provider. But it's not. Domestic cleaners clean intimate, private parts of our houses, and clean up our bodily mess, and it's low paid, low status work. Yes, people hire gardeners and window cleaners, but these are roles which require specialist equipment and insurance, and they only work on the outside and periphery of your home. Yes, I recognise that cleaners are employed in offices I use, cafes I eat in and so on, but it's not really the same either. Most commerical cleaners are employed as staff and so get holiday pay, sick pay, NI etc. Agency workers don't have it so good, and I disagree with the terms of their employment too. But domestic cleaners are often paid cash in hand because employers think they are doing them a favour. But they have no holiday, sick pay - what happens if they have an accident in the house they are cleaning in. I know there are some well organised small cleaning companies, but I think they are the exception.

But most of all, I just feel like my friend is just being lazy or thinks she's too good to pick up after herself. If you are elderly or disabled or immobile, then I see nothing wrong with getting the help that you need. Likewise, if you have a busy family, and don't want to be stuck being the person who picks up after everyone else - get the help you need and show the family how much your time costs. But if you have a quiet life and are fit and healthy, I don't see why you think it's ok to have someone over to clean your toilet. I also think that people who say they are so impossibly busy with work that they can't lift a duster once a week really ought to think about cutting back their ft hours, and give others access to the surplus of work they have.

I'm not going to have a go at my friend. But I just don't think it's right.

I would have a cleaner again if I could (as I said up-thread, ironically the reason I can't right now is because I am concerned about their working conditions) but although I hate the circumstances under which I clean my house, I don't hate cleaning per se.
I am now considering looking into this as a business idea. What I hate about it is doing a scrappy job, which no one acknowledges as something that takes up time, around everything else I have to do, in some half-arsed, arm's length way because I am wearing good work clothes but have noticed the state of the sink while dd is in the bath, for instance.
I wouldn't mind cleaning in the right clothes, with an ipod on, in an empty house, PAID, and not trying to do it at the same time as something else, and taking pride in a good job done from beginning to end, properly. On that basis, and on the basis that I am quite organised and pleasant in real life (believe it or not!) maybe I could make a go of it, for a while till both dcs are in school, because the amount we pay on childcare and my train fares is insane. I might go and crunch some numbers. I love my job but right now I hate my life.

Actually Curry that's exactly how the lady who does us got started. High powered job, crap work/ life balance - something had to give.

Wanted to add my voice to the pro-cleaning brigade.

I hate cleaning. I'm crap at it (probably because I hate it). I like reading, playing with the kids, being creative. Creativity is completely blocked when you're constantly remembering bits you still have to do in the house.

I treat my cleaner well. I love her and couldn't lead the lifestyle I do without her (which is not wealthy in material things, but wealthy in love and time and peace). I gave her a huge bonus at Christmas. When she asked me why, I explained that without her looking after my house, I cannot look after my children the way I do. So I owe her a gratitude for my quaility of life.

If my lawyer or accountant or dentist contributed to my quality of life they way she does, then I would also love them, or call them a 'gem' or whatever.

Personally, I think the people who are against hiring cleaners are the 'martyr' types. So they can tell their children how hard they worked all their lives. To me, that's just stupid.

No it's about 'thinking' about the impact that my decisions make on others. We can afford a cleaner but we don't want one as I strongly believe we should clean up our own mess. To me it is a fundamental lesson in life that I want my children to understand. Life is not wholly about making yourself happy at the expense of others. That is not something I'd want my children to believe.

It's really not that difficult to teach children about cleaning up their own mess and have a cleaner.

I'm also realistic enough to be aware that I use many services provided either directly or indirectly by people who are not happy in their work because not everyone can have a job they love. That doesn't mean I'm making myself happy "at the expense of others".

Only buying goods or services when everyone involved in providing them is very happy in their work is not realistic unless you are going to be self-sufficient and knit your own yoghurt and weave your own lentils.

Cleaning up mess and daily tidying happens al day every day, as well as having a cleaner. Cooking shopping washing ironing child care vacuuming putting away toys wiping surfaces washing up...all this is stuff dc see and learn to join in with.

The cleaner comes and does a proper clean, which is tricky with an active toddler. I can't bleach the bathroom or floors with him dashing about.

Life is not wholly about making yourself happy at the expense of others.

Just playing devil's advocate here, Goldenbear, but isn't that what you are doing? You have a strong conviction that one should clean up one's own mess, and choose to live by it - presumably because living according to moral standards is part of what makes for a happy and fulfilling life.

Yet in doing so, you are denying someone else the opportunity of gainful employment, ie making yourself happy at their expense. Perhaps you should disagree with emplying a cleaner, yet employ one anyway, to solve this paradox? [leg-pulling icon]

goldenbear - you feel strongly about not having a cleaner.

but do you eat meat? fly? give as much as you could to charity? buy fairtrade? organic? high welfare? drive a car?

everyone has different opinions about what is important to them. about what is the right thing to do.

"But I just don't think it's right." well no you've made that clear - thats why you don't have a cleaner.
Your friends doesn't have the same view so is happy to hire a cleaner.

You do understand that just because you think something doesn;t actually make is true?

My mum has been a cleaner in the past and I have hired cleaners in the past. I agree that many cleaners tend to be less well paid than those who employ them (otherwise you couldn't afford one ) but I think the days are long gone where only the upper middle classes employed cleaners.

If you employ anyone the onus is on you to treat people fairly and pay people fairly whatever job they do - I don't understand why you reserve your disapproval for cleaners and want to make them all unemployed.

If you have the time and inclination to clean your own gaff then great

otherwise get yourself a cleaner

it isn't a matter of conscience, it's a matter of choice

I think it's fair to say that a good number of those who are uncomfortable with the arrangement would agree that not hiring a cleaner is addressing the symptom rather than the cause.

I would like for every cleaner to be a cleaner by choice and treated/paid well. This is not faux concern, as someone noted upstream a bit. Were this the case, I would have no issues. As it stands, I remain a bit guilt-ridden.

And, I have a problem with lack of social mobility in general --> pools of professions loosely determined at birth. This doesn't mean that I'm a Marxist or similar.

"Life is not wholly about making yourself happy at the expense of others." - I don't think my cleaner would be happier if I fired her

HNRWT - all 460 odd posts!!!

But I would love to live in the OP's friends flat. it sounds bloody lovely. Though I would not like to have the OP as a friend.

I had a cleaner come for 2 hours last week - first time ever. It is the most marvellous thing ever & long may it last.

My sis gave up on her cleaner when she realised she was adding to her stress ie my sis spent ages making sure the housewwas spotless before the cleaner came ( so she could focus on hovering, dusting washing windows etc). I however would be lost without my cleaner but she doesn't come in and pick up after us she comes in to do specific jobs. She does 2 mornings first is spent sweeping, hovering, mopping or polishing all floors as needed (hard going with a toddler running around) other morning she deep cleans one room. I am still the one doing the day to day housework, laundry, washing up etc but she does the big time consuming jobs. In some ways i view her as a specialist and definitely not beneath me.

I LOVE having a cleaner. I have no children, and live by myself. I have a two bedroom, 1000 sq ft appartment. I don't work particularly long hours; I do work full time and work about 10 hours/day Mon-Thurs but take a half day on Fridays.
I have a cleaner because I don't particularly enjoy cleaning; I'd rather spend my evenings going for walk, reading a book, playing my piano or painting my nails. I feel absolutely no need sense of guilt/shame in this - it never occured to me that anyone would until I read this thread. I am just happy that I can afford it and it improves my quality of life. My cleaner is happy too - she comes to me for four hours every second Tuesday and chooses her own hours during the day. She is paid 22 pounds/hour (the going rate where I live) and gets holiday pay and she's insured. Obviously I need to dust, hoover, disinfect the toilet etc, but her coming and doing a thorough job means what I just need to stay on top of it and it's light and fast and doesn't build up to the point where it's hard work.

I have a friend who went to Tanzania on a six month voluntry post. The job came with a small apartment and the previous worker had employed a cleaner. My friend didn't feel the need of a cleaner, said she'd rather do it herself and had plenty of time as she wasn't working full-time. So she dismissed the cleaner. The next week a deputation of people came from the local town to ask her why she dismissed a good worker who was a single mother with three children, and did she realise what hardship she had caused. Of course she didn't - it hadn't occured to her. She re-hired the cleaner and understood and that it was a social responsibility for those who could afford to employ others to do so.
There's a lot to be said for taking this attitude.

It's worth pointing out that there's been a good number of posts on here by people who are or have been cleaners - and none of them have agreed with the OP

What you need is a bigger problem.
Oh and yes yabvvvvvu

Blimey - having a cleaner a few hours a week does not mean we don't clear up after ourselves, there are 4 of us so there is plenty that needs doing, a housekeeper is a different story but I still don't see anything wrong with that I can dream

I don't think having someone clean the kitchen/bathroom and dust/hoover once or twice a week will stop me teaching the children how to clear up after themselves. We do make sure the house is tidy for when the cleaner comes, it means she can actually concentrate on cleaning and also ensures our house is always tidy.

I am quite jealous of your friend so I may speak to DH about having the cleaner an extra hour or two per week

YABU and YANBU

but

She is BU to dust her cupboards once a month and clean the oven so often etc. In fact if it is only her, her kitchen and bathrooms don't need doing twice a week. Yes she is definitely being unreasonable but YABU too, it's her money to spend as she wishes i'd secretly disapprove too but would think once a week is ok

I like cleaning. I am good at it and I get satisfaction from it.

Whereas I hate it, am crap at it and would happily pay somone else to do it.

Win win :o

MrsDeVere - that made me spit my coffee over my laptop

Um, i have a cleaner 3 days a week. She comes at 7.30am and leaves at about 3pm. I dont feel guilty for having her clean my house. I dont live in UK but it certainly isnt unusual to have someone to help you in the house here.

I'm glad people hire me to clean for them.

Whoever said that cleaning other people's toilets was grim - my Mum doesn't have great eyesight, so any time I am at her house I would give the bathroom a clean, including the toilet. I don't give it a second's thought.

And of the 3 hours a week that my cleaner spends at my house, probably 10 minutes max are spent cleaning the toilet.

I also tidy before the cleaner comes, so that she can spend her time cleaning, not tidying, and I would empty any bathroom bins in advance as well.

I wonder if the OP's about her friend is because twice a week sessions and monthly oven cleans seems a bit excessive? If the OP's friend was the one who was cleaning the flat herself to the same extent, would the OP still feel the need to privately judge, or is it just because she is paying someone else to do it?