Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"tutoring for grammar school is cheating". AIBU to be fuming at DSIL's attitude?

670 replies

twiceupinarms · 26/04/2013 19:29

namechange coz as much as I don't care if she reads this, I don't want her to know my normal nickname.Angry
I am getting my DD tutored for grammar school. DSIL thinks it's cheating if she can't get in without being tutored and will therefor struggle when she gets there. for fucksake, the exams are not based on school curriculum - it's like being a brilliant footballer but been trialled to get in the team on your ability to tie your laces. fucksake.
Anyone else encountered this attitude?
Oh I can add hypocrisy to the list? Her DD audtitioned to go to Stage Boarding School. Did she do any practice/preparations for the audition? Only 9 lessons a week, every week, for 6 years.
Angry
AIBU to be cross?

OP posts:
LaQueen · 30/04/2013 10:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

exoticfruits · 30/04/2013 10:32

The Times has an excellent article today headlined 'Head attacks 'hideous' tutoring of pre-schoolers-but it includes all tutoring.
Since I can't link I am copying and pasting the entire article-which I agree with 100%-I can see why he is in despair.

'The headmaster of a leading prep school has described private tutoring as a ?hideous concept? that can undermine education.
Ben Thomas, Headmaster of Thomas?s, Battersea, said that there was ?far too much? tutoring in London. ?I?ve got a real anxiety about tutoring,? he added. ?It?s unregulated and unproven. It devours children?s time when they should be having a childhood.?
Children as young as 2 are being privately tutored to secure places at top London prep schools, including the group of four Thomas?s schools.
The topic was raised recently by the Girls? Schools Association. Research conducted by the organisation indicated that head teachers of senior schools are also increasingly irritated by the practice of children being tutored for school admission. ?Heads of senior schools and prep schools discourage this practice, as it masks the child?s innate abilities and is of no help to the child if they are tutored into a school for which they are not, in the long run, suitable,? said the study.
The issue is causing Mr Thomas so much concern that he plans to host a debate for parents and teachers on the topic. The motion will be: ?This house believes that tutoring undermines education? ? a title which Mr Thomas admitted was deliberately provocative.
?I always said that if ever I heard that tutoring agencies were starting to work on three-year-olds for our entrances, I would give up,? he said. ?And it is now looking like I?m going to have to give up. Well, I?m not going to give up; I despair. The bottom line is, I despair.
?It is driven by a fear of missing out. What it leads to is this rise and rise and rise of tutoring. On the surface of it, it would seem to be a no-brainer that one-to-one tutoring is going to help a child. But there are lots of subtle reasons why that is wrong.
?Firstly, it?s children?s time. We set an enormous amount of homework, and children?s days are incredibly busy. There shouldn?t be time in the week for them to be having two hours of tuition. Their childhood is being swallowed up.
?More subtly, it can undermine a child?s learning in the classroom because they tend to think, ?I don?t need to listen to my teacher, I?ll ask the tutor when I get home? .?
?I?d like to bring all this out into the open, because the problem is it all goes on slightly behind the scenes. Parents get their children tutored but they don?t tell the school. They have this sense that the school doesn?t really approve and they?d rather keep it quiet, but of course the children all come and tell us they?re being tutored.?
Clarissa Farr, High Mistress at St Paul?s Girls? School, said: ?We are seeing an increase in tutoring and therefore we now ask parents when they apply to declare what tutoring they have provided for their children.
?I am less concerned about the tutoring for admissions to private schools than that which goes on once they are there. I believe that there is a significant industry which trades on insecurity and exam anxiety, sometimes undermining rather than building confidence. There should be a charter which requires all tutors to register with the school any child they tutor attends, so that all parties can work together.?
Gwen Byrom, Headmistress of Loughborough High School, said: ?I do have many prospective parents who assume tutoring is a necessary part of the admissions process, despite our best efforts to persuade them otherwise.?
Mr Thomas said that selective schools had added to the problem. ?The thought that we?ve created a system where we?ve got three-year-olds being coached to get through an entrance test is fundamentally wrong..?'

seeker · 30/04/2013 10:37

"But, my point was, that outside actual lessons and during the rest of the school day, she would be mixing with hundreds of other teenager pupils, who didn't value their education, and who weren't bothered about doing their homework, and who openly sneered at those who did"

Because of course that's what everyone who isn't grammar school material is like Hmm

I asked earlier why it's OK to say that the selective playing filed is level, because all a bright disadvantaged child has to do is work hard, be determined and a grammar school place can be theirs- but not all right to say the same about bright privileged children and their A*s. Nobody seems to have replied.......

gazzalw · 30/04/2013 10:39

It think this article hits the nail on the head.

But by and large I wonder if it's the same type of parents fuelling this tutoring epidemic, whether it's to get into top prep schools or selective state ones...? I suspect so?

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 10:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker · 30/04/2013 10:50

laQueen- could you address this? "I asked earlier why it's OK to say that the selective playing filed is level, because all a bright disadvantaged child has to do is work hard, be determined and a grammar school place can be theirs- but not all right to say the same about bright privileged children and their A*s. Nobody seems to have replied......."

JugglingFromHereToThere · 30/04/2013 10:51

My reaction to the article exotic posted by the HT is divided into two thoughts ....

  1. Yes, absolutely agree that all children, and most especially the very young need time to play in their childhoods. Essential part of their learning and development, as well as at the heart of the joys of childhood.

  2. I think teachers can be a bit precious about them being the only ones to teach the pupils in their school. A bit like when you're told not to help your child with maths as you might confuse them by using the wrongold-fashioned methods ! But I think all learning is good (more or less) Parents especially, but also anyone in the child's life including tutors, can all contribute helpfully to a child's education and understanding.

Just keep an eye on the stress/play balance, especially with the youngest.

Xenia · 30/04/2013 10:54

The article is mostly about tutuoring 3 year olds for 4+ entry. The schools really do not find those tutored do better. They are pretty good at spotting the bright child. There is no need at all to tutor 3 year olds even if you want selective education at 4+ as we did.

As for tutoring later it is up to the parents. I like children to have loads of free time so they can be bored and think. However you need a reasonable balance and making sure they do their homework and turn up to school and discussing their school work issues with them if they are stuck is always a good idea.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/04/2013 11:09

yes, it's funny that any kind of economic disadvantage is no excuse not to be able to google free 11+ papers and pass them, and yet at 16 no inherent academic advantage is enough to prevent them being bullied or forced into underachieving misery and failure just by being in same building as some less academically-inclined peers! Grin

I know lots of teenagers - to be honest, the things they sneer at aren't usually anything to do with homework or its completion. Like most people, I think they're usually a bit more complex than that.

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 11:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FrauMoose · 30/04/2013 11:41

More on tutoring here..

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/apr/29/tutoring-downside

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 11:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker · 30/04/2013 11:57

"But, I want better than just fine for them."

Can I ask- do you ever think about the impact of the selective system on other children?

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 12:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 30/04/2013 12:11

"I haven't worked in a comprehensive school yet where that is the ethos"

Well, LaQuuen, my DD goes to a very good faith school which is actually a comprehensive, though it more often calls itself an Academy or other descriptors, and probably thinks it's a grammar - it used to be a long time ago. Anyway I think it does have that ethos you're talking about LQ, where most pupils work hard and have high aspirations, and respect for learning and for their teachers. Like you, if we were competitive, it was largely because we wanted our DCs to be with like-minded other children.

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 12:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker · 30/04/2013 12:19

So "just fine" is OK for everyone else, but not for your children?

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni · 30/04/2013 12:24

''If something gives a tiny benefit to a minority, but a massive disadvantage to the majority, then obviously it shouldn't happen.''
You could argue that paying tax money to disabled people is in this ball- very different scope but if you cut off all 'extras' to people just because they are a minority, you aren't actually 'helping society'.
I am proud to live in UK where we have a free health service. I also am proud that we have a system where parents can choose, to an extent what type of education their child has. In US they clearly have more funding for their schools, which we simply don't have here.
Life is a long series of tests and failures. You could argue that failing at 10 means they are stronger and more able to take knocks in the future or perhaps fuel a desire to prove the system wrong. No child is the same. Choice is therefore the best way forward IMO.

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 12:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker · 30/04/2013 12:29

But you've already said that comprehensive schools are populated by sneering, knuckle draggers who don't care about education, and they would hold your dd back. You can't have it both ways! They are either fine, or hotbeds of bullying and underachievement! They can't be both.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 30/04/2013 12:29

If equal effort and resources are put into the education of each child perhaps that would be fair ?
Those that are respectful of others and have a good attitude to learning may make more progress than some others.

OMG - Am I turning into a Tory in my old age ! Blush

Obviously some extra provision should be made for those with special needs and even those from challenging backgrounds. < softens, ahhh, that's better ! >

But I want my DC's to get a fair deal too, and have their hard work encouraged and supported, and their aspirations encouraged.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/04/2013 12:30

but then those ones can't have a comprehensive education if there are grammar schools, can they?

seeker · 30/04/2013 12:32

"If equal effort and resources are put into the education of each child perhaps that would be fair ?
Those that are respectful of others and have a good attitude to learning may make more progress than some others."

Well, they certainly can't if they are separated into different schools at the age of 10...........

LaQueen, out of interest, what will you do if your dd fails her 11+?

wordfactory · 30/04/2013 12:33

Superselectives don't really affect comps, do they?

The cathcments are usually very wide and you're only removing a few outliers from the other exisiting schools. They'll still have lots of bright kids in 'em.

So who is losing out exactly?

The outliers get an appropriate education and so do the vast majority. Job done.

LaQueen · 30/04/2013 12:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.