to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

The think is = the thing is

Good nights sleep clearly hasn't improved my proof reading

Cote
Thats nonsense
My dhs baby book show he had chicken pox mumps and measles within his first year of school i think it as over 10 months whch is alot of school to miss. My litte sister had mumps and Rubella within two weeks of each other.

Interesting that generally this "overloading an immature immune system " isn't considered a problem with the diphtheria and polio vaccines- I wonder whether people feel more able to risk not giving the MMR because the illnesses are not so frightening?

The immunologist I quoted was talking about all vaccinations. Although she did particularly mention vaccinations against viruses.

I meant antigen, it is something that causes the immune system to produce antibodies.

There was, a number if years ago, research showing that contracting measles & mumps in the same year increased your risk of bowel disorders such as crohn's & ulcerative colitis, but I don't know what any follow ups to that (if there were any) showed.

There are people who feel their child regressed after DTP as well.

Heebie - If you really meant "antigen", than your sentence doesn't make sense because antigens are the chemicals on pathogens (the organisms that can make you ill). It makes no sense at all to talk about the immune system coping with three antigens, because there are more than that on a single cell of the organism.

bruffin - Which year is this "school"?

My point was that all children's illnesses don't happen at the same time, or even within the same year. Congratulations if your child had two in the same year. He didn't have several at the same time, or all in the same year, not even several at the same time, did he?

What we are talking about here is that there seems to be a short period of time when certain children are vulnerable and regress following some types of injections or vaccines. Do you have a problem with this? If you do, what do you feel about the court cases won and compensations received by families of vaccine damaged children?

You are so desperate to discredit everything that it sometimes looks bizarre

WhenSheWas - I don't think this is about all infections.

CotedAzur do you have any actual evidence for your crackpot theory that wild infections naturally happen spaced apart, or is it just your and volcan's memory that they didn't seem to happen at the same time?

Cotedazur my DH had all 3 in a space of 10 months in his first year of school. We found his record card recently with the dates and my sister had Rubella and mumps with a 2 week break between them.

Widow - I think this is your first vaccine thread, so I am trying to be patient with you. Don't push it

For those hard of understanding among us, this was the conversation:

Heebiejeebie Sat 27-Apr-13 11:35:48
Theoretically.... if (if) autism relates to a deficiency of mirror neurones, then the loss of those neurones could be an auto-immune process, like the loss of insulin-producing islet cells in type 1 diabetes. The latter can be triggered by trivial infections. So, autism might be triggered by things activating the immune system, like viruses or vaccines. But even if it were a vaccine that triggers the process in an individual, it could be that their innate succeptibilty means SOMETHING would have inevitably triggered the process, vaccine or no vaccine.

CoteDAzur Sat 27-Apr-13 11:40:24
"SOMETHING would have inevitably triggered the process"
Except that people in their 30s and 40s don't regress and become autistic.
Would you not say that it looks like there could be a vulnerable period (toddler/early childhood) where such triggers happen?

Raspberrysorbet Sat 27-Apr-13 11:49:52
Toddlerhood is a time when the brain is developing at a rate of knots. I wonder if this contributes to vulnerability?

CoteDAzur Sat 27-Apr-13 11:55:25
And if that is so, than regression of vulnerable people isn't inevitable. You just need to be careful for a short period when they are small. Delaying and/or separating group vaccines into singles and spreading them over time would presumably help in this situation, which is what researchers jimjams is quoting seem to be saying.

Heebiejeebie Sat 27-Apr-13 12:01:55
If the vaccine can trigger auto-immunity then highly likely so would the infection (which looks the same to the immune system). Having 3 antigens to cope with at once is really not unusual for the system, is it?

..... which is when I said that the difference might be that childhood illnesses don't all happen at the same time.

It's not a "crackpot theory" to point out that no child gets measles, mumps, and rubella at the same time, not to mention all childhood diseases within the same year.

bruffin - As I asked before: First year of which school? Nursery? Preschool? Elementary? University?

We are talking about the period when DPT & MMR are being given, the period which people say only coincides with the time when some children regress.

How about instead of simply repeating your opinion you come up with some evidence (from a reputable source) which confirms your opinion that childhood diseases don't happen in the same year?

You know, backing up your claims makes for a much better argument, than simply being patronising.

You may have spent plenty of time talking bollocks on vaccine threads, but that still doesn't provide any evidence that your opinion is correct.

Well childhood infections were known to run in cycles (2 years for measles apparently, 3 years for mumps - from a quick pub med search) so I guess that will affect the probability of catching those two in the same year. They also had seasonal cycles - think measles was spring??? Not sure about mumps.

I don't think you will ever get it, Widow. That's OK.

The point is that they don't all enter the blood stream at the same time. Not even three at a time, like the way our vaccines work.

I haven't made a theory of my own, just continued the conversation that took place as in my previous post.

Those who have understood what was said are clear. Those who haven't... well, they just never might

Here you go - not sure my maths is ever really up to following this sort of paper but it delves into infectious disease cycles being out of phase

m.rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/273/1591/1229.full

Since when has DTP been linked with regression? Are a lot of people not having this vaccine either? I am old enough, just, to remember the terror of polio. Please don't tell me there is a chance of it coming back.....

Actually that paper really is fascinating - apparently measles, chickenpox & rubella were infecting different age groups (rubella late childhood pre-puberty as well), measles & whooping cough were infecting the same age group but were out of phase.

That really is fascinating.

So cote is correct - in the pre-vaccine era being infected with two childhood diseases in the same year was unusual.

cote you have made a claim that childhood illnesses do not occur at the same time or in the school year. You expect us to accept this sweeping statement, please provide some evidence for this we aren't just going to take your word for it.

Plus why did you have a to at me for talking about infections and then quote previous posters talking about viruses and vaccines.

I know I've said this before but there is no evidence that mmr is linked to autism. The conversation about vaccines and viruses possibly causing regression in vulnerable people is facinating but it is purely hypothetical.

If introducing 3 vaccines at once is more risky why did the data from Japan fail to show a reduction in the number of autism cases? (Japan stopped the mmr and used single vaccines).

You are right, jimjams, it is fascinating:

"These age-related aspects of transmission are relatively well documented for the major childhood diseases. It is known, for instance, that in the pre-vaccine era in the developed world the mean age at infection (A) for measles and whooping cough was 4?5 years, whereas for chickenpox and rubella it was 6?8 and 9?11 years, respectively (Anderson & May 1982b)."

"If introducing 3 vaccines at once is more risky why did the data from Japan fail to show a reduction in the number of autism cases? (Japan stopped the mmr and used single vaccines)."

I wondered this too.