to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

Jimjams - In France, some vaccines are compulsory for school attendance. MMR is not one of them.

I always thought that the thrust of Saintly's arguments was that a 'one-size fits all' policy isn't appropriate for some children, but that is the only option allowed at present, and that we need much more research into auto-immune diseases.

Noblegiraffe - my issue is not so much with what exactly happened to ds1 ( he was fully vaccinated up to the point of regression so I don't feel there are too many decisions to be made about him) but more about what any underlying condition means for ds2 & ds3.

Thanks cote - I wonder if you can give DTPolio without pertussis? (Think I read somewhere that it's d t & polio that is required).

jimjams - Here is the French vaccination program. Compulsory vs recommended vaccines are at the top, and then there is the vaccination program. (Let me know if you need any translation)

Pertussis = Coqueluche

D, T, & Polio are compulsory while Pertussis is recommended, so I would assume that it is possible to get pertussis separately.

I'm really trying here.
I need an intelligent scientist to help me

Are we saying there was:

A proposed link between gastrointestinal disorders and autism?

This proposed link was tested in a limited way by Wakefield and cohorts and acknowledged?

Perhaps something surrounding the administration of the MMR vaccination that might end in a very very small number of children developing autistic symptoms?

For MMR vaccination can we also substitute or suppose other toxins?

So does this have to do with?

A potential issue with some children's immune system?

The hypothesis that brain inflammation is in someway associated with the development of autism?

Therefore can activating an immune response in some children result in brain inflammation that may lead to the development of autism?

Do we need to test some children's immune system before administering vaccines?

I'm sorry but I'm lost

Ignore Wakefield (too controversial) -but for the rest yes. Work on immune dysfunction (& mitochondrial disorders) suggests there is a susceptible group or groups (more likely to develop autism). Some working in that field (who are not controversial) suggest that for this susceptible group vaccinations are safer spread out. That is their opinion rather than a tested hypothesis.

thank you

Wakefield is not "controversial", he's completely discredited.

Widow, if the MMR protected against autism by preventing CRS then shouldn't we have seen a drop in autism alongside the reduction in CRS cases?

Theoretically.... if (if) autism relates to a deficiency of mirror neurones, then the loss of those neurones could be an auto-immune process, like the loss of insulin-producing islet cells in type 1 diabetes. The latter can be triggered by trivial infections. So, autism might be triggered by things activating the immune system, like viruses or vaccines. But even if it were a vaccine that triggers the process in an individual, it could be that their innate succeptibilty means SOMETHING would have inevitably triggered the process, vaccine or no vaccine.

I think if it were seen as inevitable than they wouldn't be bothering with trying to develop a heel price test to identify those at risk at birth? And ds2 & ds3 both show red flags for immune dysfunction but haven't regressed. Maybe the red flags aren't significant, or maybe we've made the right decisions for them (and our decisions extended further than vaccinations).

"SOMETHING would have inevitably triggered the process"

Except that people in their 30s and 40s don't regress and become autistic.

Would you not say that it looks like there could be a vulnerable period (toddler/early childhood) where such triggers happen?

*prick not price

it could be that their innate succeptibilty means SOMETHING would have inevitably triggered the process, vaccine or no vaccine.

I think that could be true, but if you had an innate susceptibility, and knew you had one, you would probably endeavour to keep away from the source. Therefore if a bug was going round somewhere you'd stay at home to try to avoid it.

And if that is so, than regression of vulnerable people isn't inevitable. You just need to be careful for a short period when they are small.

Delaying and/or separating group vaccines into singles and spreading them over time would presumably help in this situation, which is what researchers jimjams is quoting seem to be saying.

If the vaccine can trigger auto-immunity then highly likely so would the infection (which looks the same to the immune system). Having 3 antigens to cope with at once is really not unusual for the system, is it?

bumbleymummy preventing CRS is not aimed at reducing the number of autism cases, but reducing the number of CRS cases. You know, the miscarriages, stillbirths, and severe disabilities caused by that.

Why do you home in on autism, when CRS is perfectly nasty enough in itself to not wanting anybody to be affected?

I heard an interview with a male GP on the Today programme this week and Evan Davies was accepting that the media were to blame! The fact is that neither of mine born late 90s had it as these are not killer diseases in our country. I get badgered about having my smear test - but in over ten years not one 'reminder' or invitation to have MMR - now if doctors 'saw this coming' why did they not organise catch up with school vaccinations for example - simples!
Mine had theirs in 2011 because I discovered that girls are not even followed up for Rubella at puberty - in fact Merck (that sells MMR under patent) has allowed its licence for the single Rubella to lapse - now out of patent so a 'generic'.

Ironically they go on as if it was a single measles vaccine don't they? The next scandal/tragedy will be babies born with congenital Rubella Syndrome (CRS) - typically born deaf - because their mothers were not immunised against rubella. I am expecting that the grandparents will be blamed for the HPA's incompetence.

As I said, if there is a vulnerable period for these children who would regress with these triggers, than you would try to keep them away from all these illnesses and vaccines for that short period of time. Even back when there were no vaccinations for childhood diseases, children would not get them all within a year or two. (I remember those days well)

I think you mean pathogen rather than antigen, by the way.

" Even back when there were no vaccinations for childhood diseases, children would not get them all within a year or two. (I remember those days well)"

Cote how did that work then, I'm intrigued? How did the pathogens know which immune systems were ready to cope with the next infection, and which ones to stay clear from?

While it's still there, please listen again to Vanessa Feltz on BBC radio London from last Thursday, on this topic.

It was very interesting.

Widow - I wouldn't assume that pathogens "know" which person to infect or even able to choose because I'm not stupid.

It's an interesting hypothesis that pathogens can cause an immunresponse triggering developmental changes (emphasis on hypothesis).

If you believe this hypothesis then you might want to avoid all infections. The think is how the hell are you meant to stop a 0 to 2 year old picking up bugs. My dd is fairly healthy but she must have had at least 15 colds / infections since birth (she's 2).

I'be missed loads cause I've been at work today (boo)

WidowWadman I remember those days as well.

Measles would do the rounds one year, another year rubella, or German measles as we knew it, would go round. Mumps seemed to go round less often, I don't know why.

I don't know how those clever viruses knew, but they seemed to.