to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

[ReallyTired]

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

[niceguy2]

Granted Headfairy that thankfully our corruption is lower and tax evasion nowhere near as prevalent.

But. And it's a big but. Our budget deficits are strikingly similar. Source: C4 factcheck I use that site because it's non-partisan.

OK, it's not larger than Greece's as Cameron suggests but in 2009 it was only 0.1% different. Personally I'm very uncomfortable about that. It's better nowadays but only because of the austerity measures.

So I do standby the Greece comparison because whilst we may have different reasons, our excess spending was incredibly similar. Our only saving grace is we kept the pound so we can raise interest rates to suit us and print money. Unlike the Eurozone countries who are stuffed unless the German's agree.

[ihategeorgeosborne]

We need to move from income tax to a land value tax. Housing is a huge issue now. Many on high incomes cannot afford a basic family home. Many are stuck in rented paying half their income to a landlord. The time has come for a shift in taxation.

[FasterStronger]

ihate, the family on 2*45 pay a total of 24k per year in tax. so 10k more than the single income 50k family.

so unless they get more that 10kpa in CB, still contribute more.

[HeadFairy]

fasterstronger That's one of my concerns about the Mansion tax the Lib Dems are calling for. What do you base the tax on? The current value? Isn't value a transient thing. Something is only worth what someone else will pay it. It's not black and white. And do they pay that every year? Persumably then it'll have to be reassessed each year as values change? That sounds expensive to run.

[FasterStronger]

what percentage should the land value tax be?

[ivykaty44]

headfairy the Spanish have the same types of ideas as the Greeks and Italians

[ihategeorgeosborne]

I don't know Fasterstronger, haven't thought through the finer details yet. Just think in principal it would be fairer and stop developers hoarding land. Have to go and pick up the dc. Will come back later

[HintofBream]

Get your facts right Mum2Jakie, TV licences are only free to the over 75s . I can't imagine removing that pathetic little perk will raise a huge amount of money.

[GrowSomeCress]

I agree jennywren45.

Take a pensioner who has spent most of their money throughout their life, hasn't really saved anything - take another pensioner who's had the same income, but worked really hard and carefully to save up for a good retirement.

Which one would the tax hit? The latter. So who's the fool then? The one who saves carefully.

[HeadFairy]

Ivykaty There is definitely some correlation between the countries needing bail outs and the level of tax evasion and early retirement. Us dry old law abiding northern Europeans just wouldn't do that. But I remember going to see my Italian folks and them all feeling utterly entitled to their retirement at 50 with full salary. They're all about 150 now and I don't remember one of them ever working and yet they have huge houses*

*slight exaggeration

**not a slight exaggeration. None of them worked in particularly well paid jobs, just bog standard, and yet their standard of living was fantastically high.

[HeadFairy]

HintofBream I agree... and to be honest I'm sure that's at the nub of this governments reluctance to act on this sort of thing. It would raise a relatively small amount in revenue and yet the negative publicity would be dire.

Mind you, I'm not sure how they figured the negative publicity when it came to taking benefits from disabled people. I guess there's few of them and maybe in their clouded thinking they assumed they wouldn't vote and actually wouldn't present that much of a problem at the polls.

[handcream]

So, if you are a pensioner, have your house worth say £400k in SE. You brought it for £50K many many years ago. You have retired on a state pension and a small private pension.

Are some of you honestly saying that you now need to pay tax on today's worth?? Thinking of my DM again. She has a small 2 bed terraced house in London.

I am getting slightly fed up with everyone looking at the people with 'money' be that the people working or perhaps the pensioners and then to justify their own lifestyles wanting to get them to pay for it.

Sorry, I cant work, there are no jobs
Sorry, I dont want to leave my friends
Sorry, I have 4 children and the fathers dont pay anything to me
Sorry, I want a job that fits in with my lifestyle
Sorry, I want to be a SAHM (but still get my pension) etc etc etc

[niceguy2]

I am getting slightly fed up with everyone looking at the people with 'money' be that the people working or perhaps the pensioners and then to justify their own lifestyles wanting to get them to pay for it.

Isn't that called socialism?

[HeadFairy]

I am getting slightly fed up with everyone looking at the people with 'money' be that the people working or perhaps the pensioners and then to justify their own lifestyles wanting to get them to pay for it.

Isn't that called socialism?

No I think that's called the politics of envy (some might say that socialism is the politics of envy)

[handcream]

Whatever it is IMHO its wrong! People are talking on this thread about taxing the rich (whatever rich is!). There will be come a point where if the taxes are too large people will leave the country! If I was paying for example 70% on my earnings - I would leave -full stop!

And then who will pay for pensions, lifestyle choices, people house blocking because they are over 60, etc. There wont be anyone left!

[ivykaty44]

Lets tax everything and everyone that doesn't stand still as long as it isn't me - seems to be the moto.

I do think if tax was made far more simple and transparent and you got rid of NI and PAYE and made it the same for self employed and employed things would be fairer and easier. NI is just a farce as it is a tax but it gets cheaper the more you earn - scrap it and add it onto income instead
I would rather pay more income tax and not have to pay council tax

[handcream]

Fast, I agree with you. There dont seem to consequences that were in place many years ago. Have a baby without any visible means of support even though brith control is readily available - fine, apply for benefits, someone will support you, choose to be at home during the early years and still get your pension - fine - someone else will pay and it goes on.

[FasterStronger]

from wiki The Great Depression in the UK
"The effects on the northern industrial areas of Britain were immediate and devastating, as demand for traditional industrial products collapsed. By the end of 1930 unemployment had more than doubled from 1 million to 2.5 million (20% of the insured workforce), and exports had fallen in value by 50%. In 1933, 30% of Glaswegians were unemployed due to the severe decline in heavy industry. In some towns and cities in the north east, unemployment reached as high as 70% as shipbuilding fell 90%.[74] The National Hunger March of September?October 1932 was the largest[75] of a series of hunger marches in Britain in the 1920s and 1930s. About 200,000 unemployed men were sent to the work camps, which continued in operation until 1939.[76]"

My grandma was born 1918 so was 12 in 1930 and remembers this time.

'it wasn't hard in the same way that people are struggling now' Read a history book before repeating such rubbish.

[niceguy2]

The top 1% of earners, pay nearly a quarter of all income tax. The next 9% of earners already pay another quarter, just over. In short the top 10% pay over half the income tax we receive. Income tax is our biggest source of tax revenue. (source)

In that context I find it hard to believe that the answer is to tax the rich even more.

I notice that it's also very rare for the actual 'rich' people to be moaning about paying for all these public services & benefits which they rarely use. It always seems to be those who are not paying who are the most vocal. 53.4% of families receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes. Up from 43% in 1979 (source) In other words most people don't even pay enough towards the system. Less than half of the households in the UK are net contributors.

[Squarepebbles]

Sorry wealthy pensioners should be taxed the same as everybody else and should receive zero benefits.We haven't the money to simply chuck money on people who don't need it particularly we're all working hard,wewill work harder for longer with less back. Also many far worse off have already taken a hit.

It's time to treat everybody the same instead if sheltering one section of society simply because of who they vote for.

[flatpackhamster]

ivykaty44

Lets tax everything and everyone that doesn't stand still as long as it isn't me - seems to be the moto.

That's the Fabian Way. It's the Fabians who came up with this delightful wheeze of taking away wealth from pensioners. They have the sort of urgent grasp of reality that you'd expect from people living in £1m+ houses in Camden or Islington.

[CloudsAndTrees]

Wealthy pensioners have already contributed. I think we need to stop looking to the people who have contributed, and concentrate on the ones that haven't when they could have done.

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm]

"Sorry wealthy pensioners should be taxed the same as everybody else"

They are. What do you not understand about this?

[Squarepebbles]

Oh and spare us the my parents worked hard bilge.

Many were simply lucky as to when they were born ie they took advantage of the housing boom which is the reason our dc won't be able to buy,they have pensions that we can only dream of,living was so cheap most families got by on one income,they got CB,they didn't have to help dc with uni,etc,etc

Sorry we're going to have waaaay less pension,no benefits,no NHS,will have dc living with us for years etc so can we stop paying so much NI and tax please.Fairs fair. We're paying what they did but getting a fraction back.If pensioners are going to keep everything and pay less tax I'd like what they had thanks until I'm their age and then I'd like to retire at the same age.