to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

[ReallyTired]

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

The whole concept of "early" retirement seat b misguided now.Demographics have changed hugely and someone retiring at 50/55 (dream on, my 40-something generation!) may live for a further 30 years. Pensions we originally intended to see out our 5 years

Glitchy phone!
Meant pensions originally intended to see out our 5 yrs or so prior to death, not our final 35!

Early retirement IS very unfair on succeeding generations- it is unaffordable and based on the above outdated concept. I fully expect to be working into my 70s!

No Rosa people took early retirement because the country miscalculated and I fail to see why successful generations should pick up the tab and flog themselves to death into their 80s.

Oh and don't get me started on teachers of the 70s and 80s,quality wasn't great and they spent half the time striking. Teachers today are working waaaay harder or longer,paying more and getting less.

We're all going to be working far longer and we all work hard.Baby boomers don't have the monopoly on hard work.

Do people want 70yr olds teaching their 5yr olds?

"Early retirement" pah,just why oh why should our generations work extra,longer for less,in order to fund one section of society to opt out of work early/ earlier on more,just why?

The bills don't stack up so dip into your pockets like everybody else.Yes it's a bummer but it's a bummer for all of us.I was told during my 44 years that I would retire at 60, have CB when I had children,have an NHS and my kids could go to uni.my generation has to face reality so should previous generations.

You never know if pensioners were targeted as much as children have been by this gov their children and grandchildren could actually be able to put more away for their paltry retirement at 80 but hey who cares as long as John Lewis shopping trips and Saga holidays are funded.

Everyone that I know who has retired is busy looking after grandchildren, especially in the school holidays or when they are ill. If they were all still at work they wouldn't be able to do it. (And there would be less jobs anyway).

Hmmm not all pensioners have that helpful attitude.

Not saying they need to work but wealthy and comfortable pensioners should be coughing up a lot more ie paying NI as errr the bulk of it goes on them anyway,giving up benefits they don't need and any other creative idea that could at least be thought about.

This complete hands off approach to one section of society because of their voting potential is utterly,utterly wrong.

Squarepebbles Mon 22-Apr-13 21:02:14
Faster it didn't pay for her NHS bills.

but she did not go to hospital at the end of her life, which is expensive when it happens. she worked until she was in her 80s in the family shop, then was cared for by relatives, then went to a care home which was paid for by her house.

you are talking about all pensioners like they are the same when they are not.

The pensioners who are really expensive are those who could retire early on an indexed link pension - but this is not their fault as their life expectancy was miscalculated by statisticians.

The problem with the current system is it's unaffordable, it was based on not living that long and havin large numbers of working people to pay for it. Now it is the other way round.

Pensioners rule the vote so are in essence voting to divert resources from working families and children to shore themselves up. There are going to be more pensioners over the next 10 years. There are going to be less people to pay for them over the next 10 years. No government dares to solve it, so they leave it to the next one.

But ultimately, no nation can afford to suck up all it's resource to keep it's old people rather than youth and workers alive, it's just that the longer this blindingly obvious need is avoided the worse it will be when wheels eventually do come off

This complete hands off approach to one section of society because of their voting potential is utterly,utterly wrong.

Square so what change do you suggest?

Many people are healthy and/or young retired and could work.. I personally don't know any of this vast army of unpaid childcarers- most i know might look after gkids for a w/e every year or so!

This makes no sense. It isn't hands off for one section of society - these pensioners have all been adults, they have already paid their dues, you just want to hit them again for your own selfishness.

Who are all these wealthy pensioners swanning off on cruises? most pensioners I know are struggling with high prices and utilities, same as the rest of us. If they are on a decent pension it will be because they damn well worked for it... You don't get a full pension without putting the 40 or so years in. And they did it without the subsidised childcare and tax credits around now. Like many others have said, life hasn't been some bed of roses for the last 50 years. My parents lived most of their adult life with no central heating, no foreign holidays (in fact holidays were usually a week at the grandparents) and a meal out would be an annual treat to a wimpy bar!

People's expectations have changed beyond belief. Reading many of the threads on MN there is generally a real
Culture of entitlement: 'I want to have as many children as I choose, oh and I'd like the tax system to change specially for little ole me so I can stay home as long as I want and still have all the financial advantages of working, oh and I'd like a nice healthy pension at the end even though I'm not paying in!!'

It's the politics of envy and it aint pretty. My parents are probably in the last decade of their life, they are typical of many pensioners, they certainly aren't rolling in it, and no doubt if one of them gets really infirm they'll have to sell their house to cover care costs. And if they don't, the govt will still take a shed load of money from their property through taxes. If we're going to talk about 'fairness' and 'equity' id bet good money that the vast majority in their 30s / 40s nowadays have a standard of living far in excess of that which pensioners had at their age.
Stop being so envious of what you imagine other people have!

Stop being so envious of what you imagine other people have!

exactly.

They opted out why ? As they were asked by the government ....good on them I would as well if it was offered to me. It was not their fault they were given the option is it?

Don't get me started on NI contributions. I paid 25 year plus FULL contributions - i now live abroad in Europe ( ok my choice) however I will get a part if it back by a pension but when I am in the Uk the 25 years I paid doesn't matter I am only entitled to emergency medical care etc .
The rest of "my"money has gone on other people... But that is the rules imposed by the government - labour I think when I stopped working...tough I have to live by what they decided.

"It's the politics of envy and it aint pretty"

It's the politics of unworkable economics. If you think this isn't pretty just you wait.

It's the politics of unworkable economics

which bit is unworkable?

"which bit is unworkable?"

I think this is the problem. do you actually understand how the UK pension funding system works?

Pensioners have been hit though. The personal allowances are being brought into line with working people so they will be paying more tax or those who have enough income will. The ni issue is different and even if it was extended to pensioners they still wouldn't be liable and for the same reason i am not because its not earned income. You don't pay ni on savings and investments.

About all you could do to make a real difference is cut the basic pension but its the poorer pensioner who that would hit most not the wealthy. Yes something needs to be done, no we can't afford to continue at this rate but you can't increase tax rates just for pensioners as that would be discriminatory so you'd have to increase for everyone. Anyone want to volunteer to pay more tax.

lazy - lets pretend I don't and you explain to me which bit is unworkable at the moment.

undercoversahm - from way back up thread:

"Yes, most have paid tax and NI all their lives but actually nowhere near the amount needed to pay for their retirement at state expense.."

Yes THIS is the big issue that no one will address. The pension system of the last 50 years was a giant Ponzi pyramid scheme. The maths are simple.

If a pensioner earned the average wage and worked for 45 years non stop and paid 25% of their after tax income into a fund that grew at inflation plus 2% they would have paid enough in to have 22 years of retirement at 50% of average current wage levels.

No pensioner did that. They paid a fraction of that amount in and put the surplus into buying houses - another Ponzi pyramid scheme we call the housing ladder.

No Tory or Labour Govt will ever tackle this issue.

Well said faster stronger!

Tbh it becomes absurd to try to make comparisons across the generations because it's swings and roundabouts. Yes, my parents could afford to buy a house on one income. Yippee . On the downside, they had no central heating , no meals and drinks out, oh and when my mum was eventually able to do a bit of work again (when I was about 13 because there were no nurseries and precious few childminders back then) she had a very menial part time job which was well below her capabilities because that's all that was available to women. So let's not go down the road of competitive hardship, because what some people on here seem to envy, came at a great price. I think pensioners are an easy target for criticism because some people just assume they know exactly what their life has been like.

MoreBeta, exactly- its not envy (or selfishness? Not sure where that came from!) sparking this debate, its the demographic time-bomb of how to support a hugely ageing society which is the problem.

yes Janey, my Gma lived in a 2 bed flat above the family shop almost all of her life, despite both her and my GFather working fulltime.

and for most the time she lived there, there was no heating. she grew up in the same flat & they kept pigs in the back garden to sell as meat in the shop.

so 2 bed flat, 3DCs (2 girls, one boy), no heating & the smell of pigs. oh & my uncle died aged 5 from an infection that now could easily be cured by antibiotics.

some pensioners have had it easy, but them some people do now. the sweeping generalisations are unfounded

the demographic time-bomb of how to support a hugely ageing society which is the problem.

I completely agree but this thread is about the Fabian society commenting that wealthy pensions should pay more toward deficit reduction.